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For all of you acoustically conscious people

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:10 pm
by UTTuba_09
In a standard four corner room, what is the best place/angle to practice to best hear your self, and not the room? If this makes sense... Thanks!

Re: For all of you acoustically conscience people

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:19 pm
by Chuck(G)
UTTuba_09 wrote:In a standard four corner room, what is the best place/angle to practice to best hear your self, and not the room? If this makes sense... Thanks!
Best results are generally obtained if one sticks the head down the bell... :)

But seriously--the room is as much a part of the sound making as the tuba is. Experiment.

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:24 pm
by windshieldbug
In a 3'x3' room, stand on your head and play down. :P

Room size and area and effects therein make all the difference. Follow the Chuck-man's advice.

Re: For all of you acoustically conscious people

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:25 pm
by Rick Denney
UTTuba_09 wrote:In a standard four corner room, what is the best place/angle to practice to best hear your self, and not the room? If this makes sense... Thanks!
The only way you can avoid hearing the room is by not having a room. A tuba will fill even very large rooms with standing waves, and whether you are in phase with a particular set of ripples can't really be calculated easily. That's why Chuck suggested experimentation.

Think of it this way: Let's say you take a tuna can and hold it so that the bottom of the can is right on the surface of the water filling a bathtub. Move the can up and down at a constant frequency to create waves on the surface of the water. You can see that it doesn't take much movement to fill the tub with a complete confusion of waves which would defy analysis, no matter where in the tub you wiggle the can. If you do the same thing with a pencil eraser, you'll still end up with ripples covering the entire surface of the water. Now where on the surface are the waves reflecting from the sides of the tub the least compared to the waves emanating from your excitation? You won't be able to tell.

But if you did the same experiment in the middle of a calm lake, along whose edges grew reeds and swamps, you probably would never see the waves that reflected back before they were attenuated out.

Thus, if you are trying to evaluate your sound irrespective of the room, then the only choice is to play outdoors, preferable surrounded at some distance by a forest. That will absorb most of the sound so that little reflects back to you. Of course, since tubas are nearly always played in rooms, the sound you have without room effects may not be particularly useful to know.

Rick "more interested in the room effects than in the near field sound" Denney

Acoustics

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:49 pm
by TubaRay
EuphManRob wrote:I practice outside ALL the time for this very reason (probably annoying passers-by). I have gotten to where I need to play outside, or at least in an auditorium-sized room, preferably carpeted, to be confident in my playing at all; I absolute abhor the effects of playing in a small room. I cannot stand to hear my sound thrown right back at me; every articulation sounds fuzzy, my tone sounds all wrong, and I start unconsciously doing weird (bad) things with my embouchure. Outside, everything sounds and feels free, open and relaxed; in a small room, everything sounds tight, forced and constricted.

(Of course, this puts me in a quandary when it comes to real life, because obviously 99% of any kind of playing I would ever do will be indoors. Still trying to figure this one out... :( )
Sometimes reality sucks! :)

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:08 pm
by Chuck(G)
About all I can suggest is to avoid rooms with parallel surfaces. In my experience, odd-shaped rooms with vaulted ceilings work better than ones that are shaped like a box.

If a room is small enough, it will resonate much more strongly on some notes than others, with the result that your ears will be fooled into thinking that there's something wrong with your horn.

Re: For all of you acoustically conscience people

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:02 pm
by BriceT
Chuck(G) wrote:But seriously--the room is as much a part of the sound making as the tuba is. Experiment.
I would take this advice.

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:12 pm
by Steve Inman
Find the biggest "standard" 4-corner room you can. If you have a church affiliation, then a church auditorium may be available to you at certain times during the week. You may be allowed to use it for practice sessions if you are a member or regular attender. YMMV -- depending on your local church culture.

Depending on the auditorium, they may have acoustic traps or diffusers in the room, to minimize the affect of the room acoustics.

Cheers,

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:32 pm
by TUBAMUSICIAN87
Chuck(G) wrote: If a room is small enough, it will resonate much more strongly on some notes than others, with the result that your ears will be fooled into thinking that there's something wrong with your horn.
In our practice rooms certain notes will resonate something in the room (or so it sounds). It sounds like a metal outlet with a shakey screw vibrating very loudly, but again only on certain notes (usually higher or middle C not that it matters :)) Ive checked everything in the rooms to try and find something that is even slightly loose but cant find anything, could I be mistakening it for what you had mentioned, Ive never heard of that before

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:36 pm
by TUBAMUSICIAN87
Appologies, not an attempt to hijack the thread

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:30 am
by Rick Denney
EuphManRob wrote:It's called a resonating frequency. I am not by any means a physicist, but I believe every object (and every room) has one, often beyond range of human hearing (or production).
It goes beyond that when you are talking about room acoustics. In fact, resonance is usually bad in a room, even though it's good in the instrument. I've been pondering this for a while, so if you are interested, stick with me while I make a long statement about it.

In electronics, a circuit resonates when the capacitive reactance equals the inductive reactance. In simple terms, that means that the magnetic field (produced by electricity in an inductor) reacts to the electric field (produced by electricity in a capacitor) in time to reinforce the electric field reacting to the magnetic field. The time is controlled by the frequency of the alternating current. With DC, and inductor is just a wire and a capacitor is an insulator. In a tuba, DC is the same as blowing into the tuba without a buzz--which creates no resonance and no sound.

In acoustics, for a room or space to resonate on one frequency, the pressure pulses that make up sound have to be reinforced by pressure nulls as the sound reflects off the walls. The pressure nulls react to the pulses and the pulses react to the nulls in equal amounts, which means that pressure and vacuum reactance are the same. Just as in electronics, that greatly amplifies the energy at that frequency, which we hear as ringing. When it is unintended in electronics, it's called parastic resonance--and resonance or ringing in a room is damaging vibration that distracts from the desirable sound.

Echo is when pulses are reflected back to the listener off a flat surface so that the reflection is just like the original, just delayed a bit, which creates a distinct secondary sound image. When two walls echo at each other such that the echo from one reinforces the echo from the other, then we get resonant ringing at that frequency. A simple echo is broadbanded and affects all frequencies, but a resonant echo is narrowbanded and affects only one or several frequencies. All echo, even the simple kind, is bad in room acoustics.

But reverberation is good, up to a point. Excellent reverberation, however, demonstrates a lack of resonance. No one frequency rings, but all frequencies are damped equally as they bounce around.

That's different from a space that has no reflection at all, such as outdoors or an anechoic chamber. Instead of non-resonant reflections that create pleasing reverberation, you have no reflections at all, and the only sound you hear emanates solely from the instrument. We call such rooms "dead". Eliminating reflections is one way to eliminate ringing, but it also eliminates reverberation.

So, in any room, the most desirable acoustics are those that produce reverberation without resonance on frequencies that are important to you. Small rooms are more likely to be resonant because the walls that face each other may be a half wavelength apart on frequencies important to us. For example, a room that has two walls that are 8 feet apart will resonate on C.

Even parallel walls in a big room can do that if they are multiple of a half wavelength, but the bigger the room, the more the sound is a mix of a greater number and length of paths, which has the effect of damping the resonance. But even in a big room, you'll hear ringing, and you can hear this as a variation in loudness of a constant note as you move around the room. The higher the note, the less you have to move to find the resonant nodes.

Resonance in room acoustics is always bad, so they kill it in small rooms by making them as dead as possible. The resulting sound is ugly and in my view not too helpful in understanding how we will sound "out front".

The best performance rooms are therefore big, and don't have flat walls that face each other. The walls opposite the sound source are usually made to be irregular to disperse the reflections over the maximum number of angles. Thus, the side walls usually angle away from each other and the back wall usually curves, or consists of curved sections, or has a range of bumpy treatments to disperse reflections. The ceiling similar consists of irregular or curved sections to disperse reflection.

So, sitting in a corner offers walls that diverge from the sound source, but you still get reflections from the opposing walls. Whether they are objectionable depends on the size of the room. The low ceiling bounces the sound back with no reverberation, which makes a small room sound dead. Generally, with tubas, you will hear resonance less if you sit where the resonance is minimum which is at the nulls between the nodes. That you can find only by experimentation.

I practice in my living room, which has a sloped ceiling that rises from about 8 feet high in front of me to about 22 feet high behind me. The wall to my right has a range of irregular treaments such as furniture, doorways and bookshelves to disperse without necessarily killing reflections. The wall behind me is a staircase leading to a loft that acts as a reflection trap. The wall in front of me is relatively small because the ceiling slopes down to it, and half of that is covered with furniture. The wall on the left is more distant than the ceiling, so it doesn't make as much sound in my ears as the non-resonant reflection from the ceiling and the wall behind me. It's about as good as it gets in a middle-class home. But it's still no match for the non-resonant reverberation of a large room.

Rick "hitting a 2-penny nail with a 10-pound sledgehammer" Denney

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:06 am
by windshieldbug
In school, I found that it is often the piano resonances. Back in the prehistoric days before digital synthesizers, sometimes when I worked with the Moog I would run a low, slow, glissando and listen to the practice rooms around me resonate (and probably terrify the occupants :twisted: )

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:08 am
by Chuck(G)
windshieldbug wrote:Why isn't the number 11 pronounced onety-one?
Because most European number systems are really vigesimal, at least in the rudimentary spoken form. Thus, in French, quatre-vingts (4 twenties) = 80. How many in a score? How many shillings to the pound sterling?

You asked. :P

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:17 am
by LoyalTubist
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This is off-topic, but working with non-Americans, when I mention inches, degrees Fahrenheit, gallons, or miles, it confuses the Singaporeans, Chinese, Aussies, Brits, and New Zealanders I work with (and, oh, they did hire another Yank!!!)



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