TubeNet

Maybe I'm a couple months late, or a month, or a couple weeks, but... Has anyone noticed how much more new tubas cost from places like Baltimore Brass and WWBW?! Suddenly Meinl Westons that were $6000 are $1500 more!

What is the world coming to?

smurphius wrote:Maybe I'm a couple months late, or a month, or a couple weeks, but... Has anyone noticed how much more new tubas cost from places like Baltimore Brass and WWBW?! Suddenly Meinl Westons that were $6000 are $1500 more!

What is the world coming to?

I think the value of the Euro has gone up and the value of the Dollar has gone down.

Also heard a rumor that MW prefers the "manufacturer's suggested price" be listed rather than a "sell for" price. If you are interested in a MW horn, I'd suggest contacting a dealer with money in your hand and see what happens.

M-W, with the way they are treating their dealers, is getting awfully close, if not crossing the line, into violation of USA antitrust laws -- price fixing. I have seen this discussed on other musical instrument forums. Even though in the grand scheme of things a tuba manufacturer is small, the DOJ is taking notice.

And along those lines, it's too bad that when the cyborg started assimilating, that no one was there to make the same arguments. It probably would not have done any good, however, because most of those venerable names were in bankruptcy or close to it, or outright closed down when the cyborg assimilated them.

i have heard that one of the main reasons for the prices going up, is the increase in demand for metal around the world. i also heard that it could be because of the industrial boom in china, and their need for metal.

As I understand it, a manufacturer can dictate advertising/promotional limitations (minimum pricing, geographic coverage, E-commerce, etc.) in the US but cannot demand the same limitations on how, where, or for how much $ a product is actually sold.

Before the Fair Trade laws were implemented (late 1970s?), certain manufacturers DID control the pricing of their products. When I was working for an audio showroom before the laws were changed, I was visited by a "mystery shopper" from JBL. JBL was one of the manufacturers who would pull their product line from dealers who sold below the manufacturer's suggested retail price. Salespeople were fired immediately if they were cited for such pricing.

Price is set by the buyer, not the seller. Price fixing is an attempt to keep that from happening. Meinl-Weston establishing a minimum advertized price is not price-fixing. Canon does the same thing with cameras.

Dealers get around that by writing "Call!" in their catalogs for Canon cameras.

The XBOX's all sold for the same price because demand was high. Nobody had to sell them for less than the MSRP, because buyers were available at that price for the supply at hand.

If prices drove tuba sales, then Hirsbrunner would be out of business. The trick is to sell the higher price. When the buyers no longer buy, the price will descend. If the price descends below costs, then the product will disappear off the market. That's how it works.

Rick "noting that few pay catalog published prices for big-ticket items, but those who do choose to" Denney

bloke wrote:

If prices drove tuba sales, then Hirsbrunner would be out of business.

EVERY day of EVERY week of EVERY year, thousands of people buy automobiles that are at LEAST twice as "nice" as they "need" and cost 3X - 4X as much as automobiles cost that would MORE than suit their needs. Tubas (though not considered a "necessity" in the post-modern world...as is "transportation") are not really that much different. People will buy what they WANT (vs. what they need)...if they can.

Next you will be telling us it matters that violinists will pay $X for a bow.

If people were practical, then they wouldn't spend what they do on cars. Given that they are not, it's a lot to expect that they will follow logically consistent rules in their impractical behavior.

Hm, so what's the very best tuba, well, I'm sure I have never been near it whatever it is. I don't recall any mention of the Yamaha York copy, surely a premium instrument if price means anything.

bloke wrote:

EVERY day of EVERY week of EVERY year, thousands of people buy automobiles that are at LEAST twice as "nice" as they "need" and cost 3X - 4X as much as automobiles cost that would MORE than suit their needs. Tubas (though not considered a "necessity" in the post-modern world...as is "transportation") are not really that much different. People will buy what they WANT (vs. what they need)...if they can.

Bloke
I couldnt agree more I DIDNT "need" a new 2008 Ford Diesel pickup, could have gotten by with a gas but the "NICE" factor kicked in and I can afford it. Same as I DIDNT "need" a new Miraphone 191 5 valve, could have gotten by with my St. Pete but I "wanted" it. I do enjoy playing the 191 more. Did it make me a BETTTER tuba player, right off the bat?? NO But it makes me want to practice more to become a better Tuba player. Maybe WANT vervus NEED should be looked at closer by everyone, since there is still men and woman that have served our great country in the armed forces that continue to live under road overpasses and eat in soup kitchens.

I admit I should give more to Veterans groups than I do
And Iam and Veteran myself

Well... one thing that I am beginning to notice, is that the instruments that we most often associate with "art music" (if there is any difference any more) are going up in price, whereas instruments that are your every day run of the mill instruments are becoming more and more affordable.

Take a Fender bass guitar, and you can get a very high quality instrument for $650. You can get any guitars for the same. Of course there are more expensive, and surely there are less expensive, but you can spend under 4 figures and get a the sound you need. Add in a good amplification system, and you're up to $1200.

Now, let's take my wife's bass bow. It alone cost $800! Surprisingly, it wasn't the most expensive bow that the Loft Violin Shop in Columbus had. I was shocked to think so, but truly, there were more expensive ones!

Add in the double bass that she's never going to buy, and we're in 5 figures easily!!

So, I guess what I'm getting back around to is my fear for where the world of art music may be headed. Is this a natural occurence where only those who can hack it (or live poor their whole lives, or both) can be "art" musicians and everyone else becomes the run of the mill rock and rollers?

Keep in mind, I LOVE rock music. I played in a ska band back in the day, and it was the best times of my life. BUT... I literally will never be able to afford another tuba, and it leaves me to ponder where my career takes me next. When I have that college diploma in hand come December... where do I go from there?

Pardon these ramblings... there are some valid points in there I think!

smurphius wrote:Well... one thing that I am beginning to notice, is that the instruments that we most often associate with "art music" (if there is any difference any more) are going up in price, whereas instruments that are your every day run of the mill instruments are becoming more and more affordable.

Take a Fender bass guitar, and you can get a very high quality instrument for $650. You can get any guitars for the same. Of course there are more expensive, and surely there are less expensive, but you can spend under 4 figures and get a the sound you need. Add in a good amplification system, and you're up to $1200.

Now, let's take my wife's bass bow. It alone cost $800! Surprisingly, it wasn't the most expensive bow that the Loft Violin Shop in Columbus had. I was shocked to think so, but truly, there were more expensive ones!

Add in the double bass that she's never going to buy, and we're in 5 figures easily!!

So, I guess what I'm getting back around to is my fear for where the world of art music may be headed. Is this a natural occurence where only those who can hack it (or live poor their whole lives, or both) can be "art" musicians and everyone else becomes the run of the mill rock and rollers?

Keep in mind, I LOVE rock music. I played in a ska band back in the day, and it was the best times of my life. BUT... I literally will never be able to afford another tuba, and it leaves me to ponder where my career takes me next. When I have that college diploma in hand come December... where do I go from there?

Pardon these ramblings... there are some valid points in there I think!

I think what you're forgetting here is that there are thousands (if not tens of thousands) of customers for an electric bass or other more popular instruments, while there are hundreds of potential tuba customers (handfuls of customers for high-grade, symphonic tubas).

That's why a symphonic tuba, like the $30K Yamayork, is more expensive than most automobiles, even though automobiles require considerably more raw materials, technology and labor to produce. Yamaha can sell a handful of those a year; Toyota can sell hundreds of thousands of cars. I think that's called the economy of scale.

circusboy wrote:

smurphius wrote:Well... one thing that I am beginning to notice, is that the instruments that we most often associate with "art music" (if there is any difference any more) are going up in price, whereas instruments that are your every day run of the mill instruments are becoming more and more affordable.

Take a Fender bass guitar, and you can get a very high quality instrument for $650. You can get any guitars for the same. Of course there are more expensive, and surely there are less expensive, but you can spend under 4 figures and get a the sound you need. Add in a good amplification system, and you're up to $1200.

Now, let's take my wife's bass bow. It alone cost $800! Surprisingly, it wasn't the most expensive bow that the Loft Violin Shop in Columbus had. I was shocked to think so, but truly, there were more expensive ones!

Add in the double bass that she's never going to buy, and we're in 5 figures easily!!

So, I guess what I'm getting back around to is my fear for where the world of art music may be headed. Is this a natural occurence where only those who can hack it (or live poor their whole lives, or both) can be "art" musicians and everyone else becomes the run of the mill rock and rollers?

Keep in mind, I LOVE rock music. I played in a ska band back in the day, and it was the best times of my life. BUT... I literally will never be able to afford another tuba, and it leaves me to ponder where my career takes me next. When I have that college diploma in hand come December... where do I go from there?

Pardon these ramblings... there are some valid points in there I think!

I think what you're forgetting here is that there are thousands (if not tens of thousands) of customers for an electric bass or other more popular instruments, while there are hundreds of potential tuba customers (handfuls of customers for high-grade, symphonic tubas).

That's why a symphonic tuba, like the $30K Yamayork, is more expensive than most automobiles, even though automobiles require considerably more raw materials, technology and labor to produce. Yamaha can sell a handful of those a year; Toyota can sell hundreds of thousands of cars. I think that's called the economy of scale.

Don't forget that guitar makers like Fender/Gibson/G&L all have instruments made that are much cheaper, often in foreign countries. For example, in larger music stores you will often find Fender strats that are $500-700 and Fender strats that are $1000-1500. The cheaper ones are manufactured in Mexico and the more expensive ones are manufactured in the U.S. There is indeed a difference in quality (the pickups on the cheaper ones are a lot noisier and there are subtle tone differences), but they sound good enough that people who like the originals, but don't have the cash, can afford them. G&L has their foreign operations in Korea and Gibson has Epiphone.

From what I can remember in the brass world, Conn did this. My wife and my father-in-law play french horn and have told me about Conn 8D's that were made in Elkhart vs. 8D's made in Mexico. Similar situation as the guitars.

tuben wrote:I'm not so sure about the XBOX's all being sold for the same price because demand was high. Surely, if demand were THAT high then there would have been some variation in pricing with retailers trying to undercut each other.

i.e. Best Buy - $299.99
Target - $297.99
Walmart - $294.78
etc...

If Best Buy ordered 100,000 XBOXs and they received only 80,000 because of limited supply, and if Target was similarly shorted on what they thought they could sell, and if there were enough buyers as MSRP to buy all they received, then where's the incentive to lower the price? They'll sell all they have in any case. Demand in excess of supply does not lead to discounts. Discounts are provided to increase volume, but if volume is constrained, then there is no benefit to discounting.

I'm sure that Target and Best Buy have carefully worked out the ratio of price discounts to time spent on the shelf. When the shelf time exceeds a certain amount, or when they are no longer able to move their entire allotment from the manufacturer, then they'll start discounting.

A long time ago, I wrote on Tubenet about RickBATs. If my marketing model suggests that I can sell 10 RickBATs at the $30,000 price point, 20 at the $10,000 price point, and 30 at the $9000 price point, then I'll gross more selling 10 at the higher price. I'll net far more, because my costs will be similar across the pricing models. If I can't sell them at a price higher than my costs, I won't start production. But if my technicians can only produce 10 at the quality level consistent with my marketing strategy and business model, then I'll sell them to the 10 people able to pay the most. Any less, and my stockholders will accuse me of undermining their stock value and fire me.

XBOXs haven't declined in price because there are still willing buyers at that price point enough to consume all the production capacity. I assure you it's not because of Microsoft's pressure. That would be too easy a target for the regulatory agencies, who already have Microsoft under the magnifying glass. In fact, I'm betting Microsoft is a little peeved that they started them out at too low a price point.

Rick "who has written his share of business cases" Denney

circusboy wrote:That's why a symphonic tuba, like the $30K Yamayork, is more expensive than most automobiles, even though automobiles require considerably more raw materials, technology and labor to produce. Yamaha can sell a handful of those a year; Toyota can sell hundreds of thousands of cars. I think that's called the economy of scale.

You are still mixing price and cost. Price and cost are only related at one point in the business model: Is price high enough to cover costs? If not, then production will never begin. If so, it might. Beyond that one decision, price and cost are completely unrelated.

Toyota starts with a price point and designs a car around it. They know their market better than they know their engineering, and their engineering is pretty darn good. If they can sell a Camry for $30,000, then they'll make sure they design a car they can produce for $20,000 or less.

Volume has an effect on cost, but that's not why a Yamayork is expensive. It's expensive because Yamaha can only produce a very small number of them, and will thus only sell them to the most motivated buyers. I suspect that building 10,000 Yamayorks would not lower unit costs significantly. In fact, it might raise them, because of the training costs of developing technicians who can build them. Tubas in that class do not benefit from production techniques and maintain the hand-made quality.

That's why Meinl-Weston sells (basically) the same instruments in two versions: One with significant hand hammering and one with machine-made parts. People pay more for the hand-hammered version because they perceive it to be better. If people didn't perceive a M-W 2000 to be better than a 2155, for example, they wouldn't pay 50% more for it, no matter what the difference in costs.

Rick "understanding the difference between price and cost" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:I suspect that building 10,000 Yamayorks would not lower unit costs significantly. In fact, it might raise them, ...

True. There have been many businesses that have gone broke trying to fill larger that expected orders.

bloke wrote:In 1977, Wichita Band Instrument Company sent flyers out all over the U.S. advertising (new) Mirafone 4V CC tubas (various models) for c. $1450. I will admit that I bought one (a model 184) because I thought, "That's cheap!"

In 1972, I bought a brand new Miraphone 186 BBb, with a gig bag and mouthpiece, through Bill Rose for $1,100. If recall correctly, you could still get a new VW bug for less than $3,000 at that time.

Rick Denney wrote:

tuben wrote:I'm not so sure about the XBOX's all being sold for the same price because demand was high. Surely, if demand were THAT high then there would have been some variation in pricing with retailers trying to undercut each other.

i.e. Best Buy - $299.99
Target - $297.99
Walmart - $294.78
etc...

If Best Buy ordered 100,000 XBOXs and they received only 80,000 because of limited supply, and if Target was similarly shorted on what they thought they could sell, and if there were enough buyers as MSRP to buy all they received, then where's the incentive to lower the price? They'll sell all they have in any case. Demand in excess of supply does not lead to discounts. Discounts are provided to increase volume, but if volume is constrained, then there is no benefit to discounting.

I'm sure that Target and Best Buy have carefully worked out the ratio of price discounts to time spent on the shelf. When the shelf time exceeds a certain amount, or when they are no longer able to move their entire allotment from the manufacturer, then they'll start discounting.

I think you're forgetting one or two very important aspects of retail--especially retailers of the size of Wal-mart and Target: They want to drive business into their stores and they want their customers to be loyal. If they make $5 or $25 less on an XBOX, they may be willing to take that hit in the hopes that the customer will buy more things on the same trip or have a very good feeling about the experience of shopping there and, so, return for more.

You do bring up a good point there. Retailers will take hits on common items in hopes of making sales on other marked up items. That gets into visually pleasing stores and all sorts of other psychology.

BUT... tubas aren't anything like that. I've never been in a "tuba showroom" where only the Hirsbrunners were inside, and the B&S's were out in the parking lot. They're pretty well all mixed in one room, in no sort of flashy displays (at least for the most part).

SO, knowing that, instrument retailers are selling knowing that people are coming to buy what they are looking for.

What I want to know though is why the cost of machinemade as well as handmade seem to be going up exponentially. It seems to me that the costs of living are going up slower in percentage than the prices of tubas are.

Is this really just because of a smaller demand?

In this case, are tuba manufacturers producing only as many as they want their profits to be, or are they manufacturing as many as they possibly can? I'd think they could just raise prices and produce less if indeed they only had a certain monetary goal in mind.

If production numbers are in mind, then that's a whole different ball of wax...

Matt "Just broke and pondering the funny parts of life" Murphy

ed wrote:

Rick Denney wrote: Toyota starts with a price point and designs a car around it. They know their market better than they know their engineering, and their engineering is pretty darn good. If they can sell a Camry for $30,000, then they'll make sure they design a car they can produce for $20,000 or less.

What?!

Toyota starts with the question "Will people buy this?" Then they figure out how much it will cost. Then they determine the price. If the price does not have an acceptable margin over cost, they won't produce it, regardless of whether people will buy it. Price and cost are inextricably linked.

They ask all those questions, but not in that order. Remember that Toyota provides cars at all price points. They won't compete with themselves. Their first question will be, "What market segment are we not serving?" The answer will be something like "mid-size luxury sedan buyers at the $30,000 price point." Only then to they even start to consider what the product might be and how much it might cost them to produce.

But even your statement does not demonstrate that cost and price are inextricably linked. In your statement, the only time they are concerned with the linkage between cost and price are when they make sure that price is higher than cost by an acceptable margin. Once they have determined that, they don't care if the price is higher still. What determines the price? Most people think that manufacturers take their costs and add a margin. Some do, but they often give up profit when they do. Price is set by what the buyers will pay, even if that's 100 or 1000 times what it costs them to produce. Once the price is sufficiently higher than the cost, there is no further linkage.

And, since price is determined by the buyer and not the seller, it helps to remember that the buyer cares not one whit about the manufacturer's cost. For the buyer, there is no linkage at all.

Rick "who works for a first-tier auto industry supplier" Denney

circusboy wrote:I think you're forgetting one or two very important aspects of retail--especially retailers of the size of Wal-mart and Target: They want to drive business into their stores and they want their customers to be loyal. If they make $5 or $25 less on an XBOX, they may be willing to take that hit in the hopes that the customer will buy more things on the same trip or have a very good feeling about the experience of shopping there and, so, return for more.

Yes, big retailers have loss leaders. But the XBOX, a new and popular product, won't be the loss leader. The XBOX is the thing they want people to buy after they've driven them into the store with other loss leaders.

The alternative is that Microsoft is forcing them to sell at a certain price, which won't do as an explanation. Walmart is more likely to force manufacturers to build products to a certain price point, not the other way around.

Rick "who doesn't give away his best stuff as free samples" Denney

Ed wrote:

The Yamayork is expensive because the costs to make it determine the price at which they sell it.

Of course, there is a premium built in based on the "better-ness" factor, or implicit emotional appeal of having a hand-made (or partially hand-made) instrument.

You contradict yourself here. The Yamaha may indeed be expensive because of the tooling and handwork, but it's mostly expensive because of perceived value, and the cost of the tooling, which, because of low production, hasn't been amortized.

Cost of production and retail price are are totally different animals. Tuba prices are all over, but look at trumpets: Why do most trumpet makers offer a trumpet with a street price of $2000 USD? Because of their production cost? I don't think so. It's because $2000 is the perceived value of a professional trumpet, and if your price is too low, people think it's cheap and won't buy.

What does a Ginsu knife set sell for now? $69.95. It's either this product or a similar one - it eludes me at the moment - where they tried marketing it at $19.95, and sales were slow because people though it was of cheap quality. They tried again at $29.99. That was the magic number, and sales improved.

In addition, the best marketers will offer a price point for every buyer. Buy the book: $25, or take a class: $100, or have a personal consultation: $1000. Take your pick depending on your comfort level. Same information, different delivery.

That's why I think it's brilliant that you can buy several versions of the Meinl Weston tubas - machine formed bows or hand hammered bows. The best margin is on the higher priced horn, but they offer both so more buyers can afford the brand. I think Conn would really have something if they thought in that way: Conn 88H trombone is $2000, or the "Vintage" 88H with a silver soldered bell and hand hammered seamed crook: $2500. They don't seem ready to try that, I think because they cater to more buyers who are concerned about price more than features.

To get back to the original question: Yes, the dollar has tanked, and the Euro is up, and metal is more expensive. And, look at fuel, energy, medical, and housing prices in the US. Up, up, up, up. If that's not inflation, I don't know what is.

Best,

Steve Ferguson