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Can anyone offer some advice about covering french horn parts with a euphonium.

Horns are often hard to come by when forming a brass quartet or quintet, and these do not generally have a euph part. My assumption, which may be incorrect, is that substituting a euph for the french horn would require the euph to be played in its upper registers. Hence, should a smaller mouthpiece be used than one would normally use to play euph?

the other part of my inquiry concerns how to read the horn parts? Are these normally written at concert pitch or does one have to tranpose. For some reason, I have a real mental block when it comes to the whole conert pitch/transposition issue - every time I think I'm begining to understand, it turns out I'm wrong.

Fire away.

Alex F.

Alex F wrote:....
the other part of my inquiry concerns how to read the horn parts? Are these normally written at concert pitch or does one have to tranpose. For some reason, I have a real mental block when it comes to the whole conert pitch/transposition issue - every time I think I'm begining to understand, it turns out I'm wrong.

Fire away.

Alex F.

Normally parts will be written in F, mostly in treble clef. Sometimes an occasional bass clef is encountered. Written middle C = 4th line F. (lets forego the whole wrong octave in bass clef business for the moment....)
If you're lucky, there will be parts in Eb as well, and those you can read as bass clef (up an octave)
Older french horn parts can be in any transposition imaginable of course, but you fortunately won't see them in brass quintet.

Range will be between 4th line F and treble clef C for 90-99% of the time, but they can briefly go down to C below the staff and F or G on top of the staff in treble clef.

It can be done quite effectively. Darin Cochran used to play the horn parts on Euph with the Top Brass Quintet out of Dayton, Ohio. While he did have monster high chops... the parts were actually quite reasonable.

The hardest part about playing horn parts on a euph is having the ability to put your fist in the bell and play off-key!

Seriously though.... I had a fellow tuba player who switched from F horn to CC tuba because he said the fingerings were a very easy transition. I never checked this out but there might be something there.

I know that some BBB quintets use Eb alto horn/tenorhorn on what we'd normally use horn for, but often, the horn plays below the trombone, so I don't know how effective alto would be in general.

Given a choice of Bb instruments, I'd think that Bb baritone rather than euphonium might be a better match.

TubaTinker wrote: I had a fellow tuba player who switched from F horn to CC tuba because he said the fingerings were a very easy transion. I never checked this out but there might be something there.

It only works from horn to tuba: fingerings in bass clef are the same for F horn (old notation) as CC tuba (i.e. C and G are open harmonics 2 and 3). We learn to read bass clef for low horn parts, but since quintet parts are usually in the middle and high range, you won't have the same advantage going the other way.

I agree with Cuck(G) that a (british) baritone might be a better choice for sound an blend.

So . . . what are your examples of "British" baritones. I've been reading this baritone v. euphonium debate for years and still can't tell the difference. My understanding is that many of the American "baritones" are, in fact, euphoniums. Might I assume that some of these would be instruments with a smaller bore and bell?

The only American horns that might qualify are those oldies that were sold as "Bb tenor horns". Most of the rest are more in the euphonium camp.

Yamaha makes a nice baritone horn, the YBH-621:

http://columbusbrass.com/members.html

Jim Williams with the Columbus (Indiana) Brass Quintet covers the horn part on euph -- very well.

You may be able to contact him via Franklin College email: jwilliams@franklincollege.edu (I've lost his personal email account).

In our town band, a 4th horn is seldom available but we now have 3 baritones, so lately I have been transposing the 4th horn part for a baritone in my arrangements--works pretty well when the full band is playing.

In an exposed quartet, you can tell that the blend is not the same, but
'tis better to have all 4 parts present than have all sounds match. If two horns are missing, you could let baritones cover the 2d and 4th horn parts, which are usually lower than 1st and 3d. However muted euphs don't sound like muted horns, so I write only 3 parts for muted effects.

Rather than force players to do mental gymnastics during concerts, it's probably better to take the time to transpose the horn parts to bass (or treble) clef for the euph or baritone players. Move the horn notes down a perfect fifth and add one sharp to the key.

I have played horn parts on euphonium in a brass quintet for the past two years at Ohio University. While challenging at first, it really isn't all that bad. I used to re-write my quintet parts to concert pitch bass clef but as I have had to sight-read on several occasions and by pushing myself I can read from the horn parts fairly well now.

As for sound, I don't think blend is as much of an issue unless the trombone player is playing a bass. This past year the graduate quintet consisted of myself (Junior euph), bass trombone, and F tuba, and two C trumpets. It was a very interesting sound quality, but articulation had to be worked at since there were three dark low instruments.

I didn't switch mouthpieces or anything, but for certain pieces I could see where a baritone sound might be more helpful, although I didn't have the option available to me. As far as difficulty with range, I'm not high range virtuoso by ANY means but pieces like the Bozza, Ewald I, the Malcolm Arnold, none of these presented much of a problem. There was, however, one piece that we sight read that had a concert super high F in it though and that is just unreasonable to blend in an ensemble with!

Alex F wrote:So . . . what are your examples of "British" baritones.

Sorry, I forgot those beasts are quite rare in the States. Bands over here usually have one or several.
The difference is striking: the british baritone has a bell size and profile more like a bass trombone, quite different from the baby BAT shape of a real euph. The sound is much closer to a low alto horn or a trombone than a high tuba.
For my personal taste a euph has too mellow woofy? a sound to impersonate a french horn. But then I'm a product of a horn school heavily influenced by German playing (Lots of Bb side and quite a bright, slightly brassy sound)

zeign7 wrote:... There was, however, one piece that we sight read that had a concert super high F in it though and that is just unreasonable to blend in an ensemble with!

Dont worry, most french horns won't blend into the ensemble on that pitch either

An interesting diversity of responses. Thanks.

My euphonium is a Sterling compensator, which I believe can sound very un-woofy when played by the right person. The last thing I need is another horn - of any kind. Nonetheless, it seems to me that a person looking for a "British" baritone might look at:

Amati ABH221: Bore .484" Bell 8.7". WWBW advertises this as an option for someone looking for a "true" British baritone.

Jupiter 462 (?): Bore .512 Bell 9.5. This looks like a true baritone.

Yamaha YBH-301S: Bore .504 Bell 8.xx". These are the "blatweasels" referred to by one of our esteemed members in a prior thread. Pricey

Yamah YBH-621S: Bore .504 Bell 8.xx" A compensating baritone. Very pricey.

I know there are some Bessons, LMIs, and other out there but you won't easily find one in the US.

The Conns, Kings, Holtons and others I've seen, both new and used, spec out with bores sizes of .562" or so, bringing this bore size much closer to euphonium size. My Sterling is .591 bore with a 12" bell.

I get a fair number of last-minute emergency sub calls to cover horn parts in quintets. I've found my rotary-valve bass trumpet to be the best instrument for this purpose. When I play it, at least, it has a sound somewhere between a trumpet and a French horn and blends very well in a quintet. Of course to have a bass trumpet in the first place you have to be either:

1. Somewhat crazy.
2. Standing on the side of the Autobahn holding a sign that says, "Bayreuth, bitte."
3. Prone to cruising online auction sites during periods when your better judgement is impaired.

Prior to having access to a bass trumpet I used an alto trombone for these gigs. I think either of these or a Brit-style baritone would be a better choice than a euph, but if it works for you then it's a winner.

Pardon me for tailgating on this thread, but a couple of recordings I've lately received have brought up a couple of the similar questions regarding substitutions in quartet/quintet.

I've got the Ewald Quintet recordings of the Ramsoe quartets and the Bellon quintets. Very nice performance--I can recommend them.

When listening to the Bellon, the trombone sounds so wrong for the part--does anyone think a baritone might sound better? Maybe it's the big-bore trombone sound that's messing with my ears.

On the Ramsoe No. 2, it sounds as if they're using the Miller transcription. Here's the rub: The original calls for cornet in Bb, trumpet in F, tenorhorn and tuba. The substitution of a trumpet in Bb for the trumpet in F just seems to mess too much with the sound by transposing everything up an octave. Would a horn in F be more appropriate?

Thanks for your opinions.