The Dreaded Low C

DaTubaKid · Post by **DaTubaKid** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:51 pm

Hey guys (and gals). One of my summer goals is to improve my low range on my F tuba. The weakest part of my low range is the low C (and notes around it). I was wondering what sort of excersizes everybody else did to develop that area of their playing.

Right now, I've been using articulation studies (like scales with a rhythmic pattern on each note while gradually working my way down to C) and interval studies (such as the ones in the Arbans book).

Any suggestions/tip/advice?

Colby Fahrenbacher

BradParrish · Post by **BradParrish** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:59 pm

Bordogni down an octave
Wes Jacobs Low Register exercises.

Just make sure you work out lower than you think you'll need to go, and you'll be set.

andrew the tuba player · Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:00 pm

This is what i did. Just work on your range for now. dont worry about if it's in tune or what it sounds like. Just get to the point that you can reach it well. Then, start to "fine tune it". this is what i've always done to improve range and i can do a 3 3/4 BBb scale. (double octive high G through BBb are killers. but i've pulled it off a few times. most of the time the high Bb sounds like a cross between a Bb and an B natural though and it sounds like a dieing cat

lol). Also, run up and down chromactic scales. Even a half step lower will help you. I have taught a few people and i always start out doing the BBb chromatic scale to built enbocher and range. These are my methods for improveing range. If anyone has any more please share 'cause i could use it to.

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:31 pm

I rather understood the request to be "how to play the C two ledger lines below the staff, securely, on a rotary F tuba" -- not how to play in the extreme low range.

I'd have to suggest that many rotary F tubas I've played FEEL like you're playing this C with the water key held open. Usually the sound to others isn't as bad as it feels. But the note doesn't start quickly and securely, and the pitch center does not feel stable.

Mouthpiece selection may help, but you more or less just need to practice playing the note. You can't force it. A more relaxed airflow may be the ticket.

I've played a friend's PT-16 and didn't much care for the response of this note. But it's a popular model, so I'm sure many folks have figured it out and will post some helpful ideas. My post is to clarify the intent of the initial question -- I think it's the "dreaded two ledger line C" that's the subject.

Cheers,

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:56 pm

There is an exercise that Pat Landolfi (NJSO) taught me a long time ago to deal with problem notes. The audience doesn't care what valve you are pushing down, or how that note plays on your horn. Focus on making all the notes sound the same, without any change in timbre or volume. I have applied this exercise to many different notes on different horns, to ensure an even scale.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:08 pm

I've found the secret.I only play pieces on my f that don't have a low C. Simple really...

DaTubaKid · Post by **DaTubaKid** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:42 pm

Steve hit the topic right on nose. It's not the extreme range I'm refering to, but the C two ledger lines below the staff. Steve's description is exactly how I feel. It doesn't center easily, it responds slowly, and it's insecure.

Marty -

I've done a few excersizes similar to that, usually designed to work on different facets of my playing. I'll try it out and see how it goes.

MikeMason -

I think if avoided pieces that contained notes that weren't perfect, I wouldn't have much of a repertoire to chose form

.

Thanks for your help guys.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:54 pm

There's really only one note on C or F that's so bad,and that's the low C on a rotory f.Low g on a C tuba isn't nearly that bad.Another serious soloution-sell your pt and get a firebird.That would free up hundreds of hours perfecting that low C cuz on the firebird,it's a real note ,right out of the box...

DaTubaKid · Post by **DaTubaKid** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:58 pm

I'd like to try to get over to WWBW to compare horns. Specifically the Miraphone 1292 vs. my 1291 and the Firebird vs. my PT16. I certainly wouldn't throw out the idea of getting a Firebird, if the shoe fits (and the deal), but for right now I've got the PT to go with. I guess I'll just think of it as training with weights...by getting good at playing a horn with a bad low C well, when I play one with a great low C, it'll rock!

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:01 pm

touche...

The firebird is excellent.

Basically, everyone has been right on in here. Practice the note. The "octave" pattern presented above is good for any note on any horn. It helps you develop the note solidly and also helps your intervals.

Now, if you did have some money, it is always nice to have a horn that requires less effort. When I was f tuba shopping recently, I picked up several horns and just BAM, theres goes the low C and Bb. BUT new/er horns arn't always an option.

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:04 pm

FWIW, I have found that the exercise also works great for opening up the double trigger notes on bass trombone.
When I had my Yamaha 621 F, the low C was great but I would often include that exercise on a low Bb as part of my warmup.

P.S. Mike - congrats on the Thor!

a2ba4u · Post by **a2ba4u** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:07 pm

If you are playing on a 16, try messing around with the other 18 ways that you can finger that C besides just "4." I don't know that doing this will automatically fix the issues that you are having, but it makes for a great "cross-training" exercise that helps you to explore the capabilities of the instrument's physics while teaching your lips and air to find the note consistently. The beauty of a 16 (or similarly constructed ax) is that a variety of possibilities is built into the horn to facilitate workarounds---take advantage of this.

Kyle
(TubeNet PT16 fanboy-in-residence)

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:09 pm

i love that excercise for myself........but isn't it the most annoying thing to listen to SOMEONE ELSE play?????

I'm sitting in my practice room, take a drink of water...and there's the trombone player in the next room.........

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:22 pm

pierso20 wrote:i love that excercise for myself........but isn't it the most annoying thing to listen to SOMEONE ELSE play?????

Nope, that would be l-o-n-g t-o-n-e-s

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:25 pm

[quote=" [/i][/quote]
Nope, that would be l-o-n-g t-o-n-e-s

[/quote]

nope.....long tones are before rehersal....

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:05 am

With rotary F's, I've tried misc. exercises that bounce back/forth from the trouble note(s) to other "musically significant" notes. If I had to use such a horn for a concert band setting, for example (my "worst case scenario") I might find myself playing F,C,F,C,..... in some sort of march context -- miserable (probably not too many marches in F, but whatever). So whenever I try out a new F, I try F,C,F,C ... with fast air flow, slow air flow -- I experiment with different approaches, different mouthpieces etc. I predict it will NEVER FEEL great, but your goal should be to be able to get a decent tone and to be able to consistently reproduce the low D, Db, C, etc.

The Firebird and the new JBL Classic F (thanks for the test-drive, Roger Lewis) both have (IMO) a very similar low C. The best rotary F low C I've ever played. The FIRST TIME I played a Firebird, I thought it was about perfect. Now that I've tried again a year later, I'd say 80% as secure as a low C on my Yamaha Eb, my CC, etc. Not "perfect". But it's "twice as easy, secure, etc." as any other rotary F I've ever played. It's good enough that you don't really have to invest any significant time to focus on this issue -- just relax your airstream a little and it will come -- and then make music. Based on price (and my limited abilities) I'd go for the Miraphone Firebird, were I to go back to F from Eb. It's the only rotary F I would ever consider --- UNLESS I purchased an F for higher register playing exclusively (as Mike suggested above). In which case, I should have kept my old Amati/Cerveny 654-6, which had a very nice "voice".

If your PT-16 plays like the one I've sampled, you may find that a Firebird will cause you to think you've died and gone to rotary F tuba heaven. But it's not as big of a horn, so there is a potential issue there. If you want bigger, the JBL Classic is closer to the PT-1x rotary F's in size -- and probably in price, if you can find one. They're quite new and perhaps not being "officially" imported to the US. Roger Lewis can provide more information, perhaps.

NORWEGIAN STAR -- SIMILAR QUESTION:

Anyone here play the 283 Eb? How is the low BBb note on this tuba? Same "feel" as the Firebird, or even more solid?

Curious,

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:43 am

To me,the JBL only has a marginally better c than any other B&S f.But is magnificent in the construction,playability, and sound quality areas.The firebird is supremely playable,but doesn't quite have the "magic"of a B&S in the sound quality area.Before I bought a firebird,i would want to try a gronitz piston f,which reportedly has the low register and the sound.If i even get caught thinking about another new tuba,I'll be on the couch or maybe visiting the lawyer

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:10 am

the elephant wrote:
MikeMason wrote: . . . gronitz piston f,which reportedly has the low register and the sound.
So you are saying it plays like the Yamaha 621 but has a good sound? Like a rotary sound?

Could it be??? (collective pause in the TubeNet continuum ... nobody breathed ... somewhere in the distance, a dog barked ... )

jonesbrass · Post by **jonesbrass** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:58 am

Lots of good advice here. I have to say, from my own experience (FWIW . . . probably not much), you shouldn't have to work so hard to get the low range on a decent F. Part of the real key is having the right horn for you. The other part is how you approach the horn. You have to REALLY hear the note before you play it, and then you have to "release" the note, instead of forcing it. On rotary F's, the harder you try to force the note out, the more the horn will resist you. Another thing that tends to work against players is the tonal concept you have for that range. It might take a little time to settle into how the horn sounds in the register from pedal F to low F. Probaby doesn't sound or respond like a CC or BBb tuba, and never will.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:09 am

Steve Inman wrote:...
If your PT-16 plays like the one I've sampled, you may find that a Firebird will cause you to think you've died and gone to rotary F tuba heaven. But it's not as big of a horn, so there is a potential issue there. If you want bigger, the JBL Classic is closer to the PT-1x rotary F's in size -- and probably in price, if you can find one. They're quite new and perhaps not being "officially" imported to the US. Roger Lewis can provide more information, perhaps.

NORWEGIAN STAR -- SIMILAR QUESTION:

Anyone here play the 283 Eb? How is the low BBb note on this tuba? Same "feel" as the Firebird, or even more solid?

Curious,

Yeah, I've played one. Neither the Norwegian Star nor the Starlight have any low Bb problems. They both are also very in tune.