Eb in Quintet

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:07 am

Not a rotary, but I really like the Willson 3400 for quintet. The Besson 983 isn't bad either.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:35 am

the elephant wrote:Does it have better pitch than the F? And is it easy to play very softly? I have always considered the Willson F to sound like a small CC and not an F. Is the Eb similar? He wants a lighter tone.

Wade, I don't know how to answer "easy to play very softly". I don't have any problem staying under the horn if I want to.

But like the WIllson F, the Eb is comparatively large but the intonation is generally very good. The Besson 983 is a bit smaller, but Pat Sheridan can make it sound like a monster. To my ear, neither has the low register "oomph" of a CC.

Most of the little bitty Ebs that I know of (and that are easy to play) are antiques.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:20 am

No doubt that the M-W 2040/5 would fully fulfil requirements. It has a clear voice as it is designed to sound F tuba like, which I have confirmed this week playing in an Austrian band with F tuba (thanks to Tubeast)

Its low register is strong, while for intonation - I set the slides when I bought, and rarely need to do any slide pulling.

Another possible contender is the Rudy 4/4 Eb. I was very impressed particularly in its low register when I tried one at Rudolf Meinl this week (look out for post on my visit shortly).

Richard Murrow · Post by **Richard Murrow** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:19 am

â€œWhich horns offer a lighter tone than a contrabass tuba but have a properly functioning low register? He is especially interested in rotary Eb tubas that have a strong low end with no problem notes, excellent intonation and do not sound too tubby. Pistons are also okay, but not his preference.â€

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:57 am

For lighter "weight" of sound, the YEB-321/381 are hard to beat. And with a standard Helleberg, they aren't TOO quiet. But for quintet, I personally like a bit larger Eb, such as the MW2141 (more thoughts on this below), as quintet literature often includes pieces that sound much better on a contrabass, due to the character of the piece.

The Willson 3400's I've played recently did not have as easy/responsive of a low register (below BBb to pedal Eb) as my 381. But you have to be patient to find one of these (381).

I didn't like the compensating response of the 983 I used to use, but it improved with a PT-72 mpc.

Lots of good reviews about the MW2141 as an all-around horn -- not "too big" for quintet, but not too small for community bands, small orchestras, etc. Based on my experience, I would choose the 2141 if I could only own one horn. The 2040/5 is evidently similar, with more "hints" of rotary F tuba character. The advantage of these horns is that they "lighten up" in the upper register, but have a bigger sound in their lower range. For me, a 2141 would be an ideal quintet / community band tuba. The one limitation (and the advantage of the Yamaha 321/381) is when you encounter a 2nd 'bone or euph part as the bass voice in a quartet. Here the 321/381 will blend better if you play the higher bass line as written, imo.

Haven't had the chance to play the Norwegian Star, but it also gets good reviews. I will post a follow-up question about it's low BBb response in my next message in this thread, to call specific attention to this issue.

Cheers,

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:59 am

[quote="Richard Murrow"]â€œWhich horns offer a lighter tone than a contrabass tuba but have a properly functioning low register? He is especially interested in rotary Eb tubas that have a strong low end with no problem notes, excellent intonation and do not sound too tubby. Pistons are also okay, but not his preference.â€

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:00 am

the elephant wrote: Which horns offer a lighter tone than a contrabass tuba but have a properly functioning low register? He is especially interested in rotary Eb tubas that have a strong low end with no problem notes, excellent intonation and do not sound too tubby.

Ele, I played a Norwegian Star at TMEA this year, a great horn. There was no hole in the low Bb either, a strong low register. If I was an Eb player, I'd be headed in that direction.

The Willson's were as good (but different) but are much pricier. They were a little less flexible for me but that's personal.

Also, if he wants to stay with the right facing bell configuration, the new Miraphone Eb (12-something) is as good as they get.

I'm impressed with Miraphone pricing.

BVD Press · Post by **BVD Press** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:26 am

I think the Norwegian Star is a great horn, but maybe not for band? When I played one, I found all the registers to be clear and it was easy to play high or low. For band, I don't think you would get enough volume.

Richard Murrow · Post by **Richard Murrow** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:53 am

OK Doc, you've hit one of my favorite subjects! I feel like I'm 20 again every time I get the Ambassador in my hands. I absolutely love it and I think it will work for virtually ANY kind of playing. I understand why the British have been such fans of the 3+1 EEb tubas for so many years now. The Ambassador is "slightly" larger that the Besson counterpart and will definitely produce lots of sound! That being said if someone is in the market for a rotary valve EEb then I can't find any problems with the Norwegian Star and yes even the low C, B, and Bb is very solid and it also has a VERY substantial sound.

bill · Post by **bill** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:20 am

Chuck Wrote:

Not a rotary, but I really like the Willson 3400 for quintet

I also own a Willson 3400 and use it for virtually everything. I have found that it is somewhat sensitive to the mouthpiece I use (or, maybe, I am somewhat sensitive) but a number of different mouthpieces will work and each will have its own particular sound. I am using a Giddings/Webster Matanuska for all around playing. This has a lovely full sound (it may be a "dark" sound to some of you). When I need a more cutting sound, I use a Goddings/Webster Diablo. Either works well with the lower register of the horn. I have done a great deal of checking intonation in my daily practice and find the horn is seldom more than 3 cents off, anywhere. Treble F is in tune as is Pedal F. The infamous pedal C (3 octaves below middle C) is in tune, as well. Bb below the staff is warm and robust and in tune.

Several other mouthpieces have done well in the horn but I was forced to modify them since the shank on a Willson 3400 is a Euro size. Unless you get the "gap" correct, the horn will be "boom-ish", for lack of a better term. I find that a single layer of scotch tape usually fixes the gap correctly although I have cut and inside tapered a Yamaha 65 that did very nicely, too.

The quality of this horn is excellent. I paid about $6,000 for mine, several years ago and selected it from a line-up of 5 horns. My second choice would have been a Yamaha 321. The Besson 983 and 984 did not even make the first cut.

Now, time to confess my great sin. A Willson 3400 comes with the option of using the fifth valve as either a flat 1 or as 2,3. I use the 2,3 option because it extends the low range of the horn. I had to fiddle with fingerings before I got a set that play in tune below BBb but, having done that, the horn is in tune at virtually every range. As an example of this, I use 1,2,4,5 for low F. I registers dead on with my Korg tuner.

I use this horn for Orchestral playing as well as solo and ensemble. I usually do not tell conductors it is an Eb and most conductors assume it is a C. I also own a Hirsbrunner BBb, a Conn 5J and a very old (1914) Conn jumbo Eb. There are a few orchestral things easier on the Hirsbrunner but virtually everything else is done on the Willson. The other two horns are used for outdoor playing since the Hirsbrunner and Willson are quite heavy and not fun to lug around.

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:13 pm

I will put in a vote for the Besson 981. I have an old boosey which is comparable and it is my main horn used for 90% of my playing.

I use it in brass quintet, brass band, the little bit of concert band work I do, Pops Orchestra, top tuba in a a tuba/euph quartet, and the ocassional solo.

I will concede the low fourth valve register is probably not going to be as open as the rotory valve horns, but I don't think it is as bad as its reputation. With a Helleburg the low register flows pretty easily, with a Denis Wick 3 which many people recommend, the low register is a bit stuffier.

I use a heleberg for most of the work, but when I play the top part in the tuba/euph quartet I will usually use a 7B or a Chuck Daellenbach mouthpiece, which helps to focus the sound.

That miraphone that greg mentoned for sale by Josh Wirt looks very interesting.

ken k

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:39 pm

The Besson 981 is an excellent tuba, but no way can it be considered as having a 'lighter tone' as required by the original poster. Having previously played one for many years, I would say its tone is much nearer a 4/4 CC. The Miraphone 3+1 is if anything even more contrabass sounding.

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:00 pm

Neptune wrote:The Besson 981 is an excellent tuba, but no way can it be considered as having a 'lighter tone' as required by the original poster. Having previously played one for many years, I would say its tone is much nearer a 4/4 CC. The Miraphone 3+1 is if anything even more contrabass sounding.

I agree with this. I played one that was FS in my neck of the woods once and thought it was physically heavy with a fairly beefy sound as well. It did impress me as much more of a 4/4 CC than an Eb.

Cheers,

DonShirer · Post by **DonShirer** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:23 pm

A timely thread!

I use a YEB321 in a quintet. It blends well, but at a recent concert my better half mentioned that it might lack a little oomph on the low notes. She went on to suggest I start looking at another instrument, so you can imagine I am studying your recommendations with great interest. Keep the good info coming!

scottmendoker · Post by **scottmendoker** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:51 pm

Two of my students at Rutgers have purchased Norwegian Stars this past year. Both are being played in large brass ensembles - one grad and one undergrad. In both ensembles, this is the perfect instrument. You can change colors at the drop of a hat and intonation is terrific. And you can sound big or light with little effort. I'm playing on a 6 valve Firebird F and experience the same results - playing it in both my quintet, Philadelphia Brass (exclusively, at the insistance of the other members) and in various free lance orchestras around. Both are terrific choices.

Scott Mendoker

josh_kaprun · Post by **josh_kaprun** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:28 pm

If you're looking for a lighter sounding Eb, I would go with the Norwegian Star. I also got to play on it at TMEA last time around and was very impressed with it. Personally, I am looking for a horn with more umph to it, so I am looking to buy a Willson 3400S ... but I perfer pistons and want a real "all around" horn that can hold its own for soloing, small ensembles, and orchestra. However, based on what you said about what your student is looking for (a light-sounding Eb with rotary valves), I really don't think that there is a better choice than the Norwegian Star.

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:06 am

Scott, have you noticed a significant difference in the size or amount of sound produced by the star vs. the firebird? both with the same bell size i would assume not a huge difference.How similar are the sounds of the horns?

scottmendoker · Post by **scottmendoker** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:13 am

Hi Mike -

The sounds are very similar. There's a little more roundness to the Norwegian Star, but, I can re-create that on the Firebird with choice of mouthpiece. My two favorites are the GW Diablo and the Miraphone 21.

Scott Mendoker

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:08 pm

scottmendoker wrote:Hi Mike -

The sounds are very similar. There's a little more roundness to the Norwegian Star, but, I can re-create that on the Firebird with choice of mouthpiece. My two favorites are the GW Diablo and the Miraphone 21.

Scott Mendoker

Scott --

From your experience, is the response of the low C (281) "identical" to the response of the low BBb (283), or is the N.S. slightly easier? I find the 281 low C to be "very manageable", but not as much of a "no brainer" note as it is on, say a 621F, for example. Does the 283 Eb have this same response on the low BBb ("a bit of attention required"), or is the BBb as easy to play as, say a YEB-321 Eb ("a no-brainer note") Just looking for one more opinion -- thanks!

Cheers,

scottmendoker · Post by **scottmendoker** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:32 pm

On the Miraphones, those notes require a little "aiming". You're right, Steve. BUT, it takes very little effort and some low register etudes - at least for me. After a few days of that, things became a LOT easier and and the overall instrument was more even. Again, I'm talking about dealing with my own shortcomings. Playing the Firebird in Philadelphia Brass has really caused me to look at how near-by instruments react and respond to the tuba sound. While the group is of a very high standard, pitch - which was never an issue - really locked in. The same for time. And we are talking about world-class players (the other four, anyway) My take on all of this is the "focus" of sound. Very interesting stuff and I'm still learning.

At any rate, both the Norwegian Star and Firebird are fantastic instruments and are worth trying.

Scott Mendoker

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Eb in Quintet

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