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Something that has always bugged me is when pop culture takes classical music and shows how pop culture music is "better."

For instance, there is this new Vitamin Water commercial that features rapper 50 Cent. I didn't mind him conducting Beethoven's 9th Symphony, but when he turns it into one of his own tunes a few bars into it, it really bugs me. It's as if 50 Cent is not only comparing himself to Beethoven, it's like he thinks he can improve on one of the greatest compositions of all time. I don't have anything against any genre of music, but I have always been against the belief that one is better than the other.

I feel this is a large reason why orchestras and classical music in general are hurting so much. MTV is a big part of this, and I think if classical music (or jazz, or any "cultured" music, for that matter) is going to at least stay even a small part of modern day culture, these kinds of cracks at the art need to stop.

I'm happy that it gives the general public exposure to the music. It's been going on for a long time.

What does it matter if the public gets exposed to Wagner via some dreary rendition of The Ring or "Kill the Wabbit"? Why not "Plumrose deviled ham" instead of "Eine Kleine Nachtmusic"? Or "Stranger in Paradise" instead of Polovtsian Dance No. 17?

I recall the snobbish outrage when Wendy (then Walter) Carlos came out with "Switched On Bach". Yet that LP got a lot of people exposed to JSB.

It's all music!

on the side of people who think this commercial is taking a crack at classical music, I do agree that it does in a way make a comparison between Beethoven 9 and whatever the hell 50 cent song that was (I don't listen to rap....at all). The message I feel it delivered was that Beethoven 9 just wasn't good enough for 50 cent, so he had to put in his own stuff to make it good.

On the other side, I thought the part where he calls up the trombonist for a solo was hilarious.....

Chuck(G) wrote:I'm happy that it gives the general public exposure to the music. It's been going on for a long time.

It does give exposure, but I think sometimes, it's the wrong kind of exposure. If the idea is that classical music isn't as good as what you're already listen to, then nobody will go out and buy the records or attend the concerts.

On many occasions, I attended a concert where music appreciation students were required to attend a concert or two for a grade and sat relatively close to me. They were very disruptive, commenting on how this music isn't really music, talking on their cell phone in the middle of the concert, joking and messing around. I think a big part of this is that it's already been ingrained in their minds that classical music IS something to joke at and not take seriously. This music appreciation class might have been the first time they've ever heard good things about it. This is also why I feel non majors shouldn't be made to attend concerts either; there was an occasion at FSU about five to six years ago that some students needed to be escorted out by the police in the middle of a concerto being performed by the winner of the in school competition.

It's just something I think we should rethink about how we are exposing this art form to the public.

Nick

BopEuph wrote:

Chuck(G) wrote:I'm happy that it gives the general public exposure to the music. It's been going on for a long time.

It does give exposure, but I think sometimes, it's the wrong kind of exposure. If the idea is that classical music isn't as good as what you're already listen to, then nobody will go out and buy the records or attend the concerts.

Classical music is an acquired taste, like wine. You have to go through the alcoholic fruit-juice phase before being able to appreciate the subtler stuff.

If people hear the music (and they do hear it, mostly at the movies), then when they've outgrown the ear-blasting music of youth, some of them will move on to something more substantive and subtle.

That commercial is no different than 50 years ago, when classical was the "long-hair" music and (fill in the blank--swing, dance, pop, rock-and-roll, whatever) was the music of youth. It was a way for the younger generation to establish its own culture and independence. Yet, many who were not long-hairs back when "long-hairs" referred to the older generation came to classical music when their own hair turned gray. The real long-hairs from that era are now mostly all gone, but classical music remains and the people pursuing it with the most energy and hope are your age.

In terms of how we expose art, we can only do what we can do. We have neither the authority nor the control to regulate how art is portrayed. Art is defined by how it is received, not how it is delivered.

Rick "too worried about other things to worry about this" Denney

If you guys actually listen to Curtis Jackson's (aka "50 Cent") music you will hear some classical influences. Now, it's not a full blown Symphony, but it uses simple (sometimes complex) beats with a chord progression and real instruments.

Also, when Kanye West tours, he brings a string ensemble with him.

Are we going to say "no" to anyone that adds a little something to a piece? What about the brass quintet version of Bach's "Little Fugue in G minor"? Is it an insult to Bach that it's not performed on the organ like it was written for?

There is no way to know exactly 50 Cent's intentions...but he does like classical music (and he does respect it)

Rick Denney wrote:Classical music is an acquired taste, like wine. You have to go through the alcoholic fruit-juice phase before being able to appreciate the subtler stuff.

If people hear the music (and they do hear it, mostly at the movies), then when they've outgrown the ear-blasting music of youth, some of them will move on to something more substantive and subtle.

I agree, however, my parents never listened to classical music until they came to my youth orchestra performances, where my dad would fall asleep. Of course, they support everything I do, but not without my dad making jokes about what I listen to on the radio (which varies from classical to jazz to salsa to hard rock, etc.) and my mom scoffs at it and changes the station (she's a cheerleading coach and choreographer, which means she listens to a LOT of pop culture music for mixes).

My grandparents do, however, enjoy the symphony, even if they aren't educated in the history and literature. My parents, not so much. Not many people in their circle of friends enjoy classical music. As a matter of fact, the first time my dad really complimented my playing was when I played my senior recital, and he finally understood why I didn't have a part-time job like my friends and cousins attending college. As he said, it was hard work doing three different instruments at my recital. All the way up to that point, I was being lectured on how I should be working toward a "real" job.

Nick

ContraEuph wrote: ...maybe you should think because this is the future audience for those of us that want to do make a career out of this. Also future donors for orchestras.If all we have is an audience of non-appreciating adults in the world, that means no orchestra cds will be recorded or solo cds. No more live concerts.

I beg to differ. I just performed a "4th of July" concert with the CSO (Conway Symphony...not Chicago) at Lake Beaverfork. There were a few thousand people there just to hear the orchestra (and watch the fireworks after the concert). Keep in mind that this is in Conway, AR...this is a town in Arkansas that is not supposed to like classical music and yet, there are thousands there to see us.

This isn't uncommon here...every concert we give during the concert season is pretty much sold out. This is shocking due to the realative closeness of the Arkansas Symphony (about 20 miles).

So, I argue that there is a growing audience of classical listeners (and there are a lot of kids that go to these concerts). This is all thanks to the movies and popular music/musicians (including 50 Cent).

Just for reference,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H59A0Y7DSD4

Bill

ContraEuph wrote:I'm going to have to especially disagree with you Arkietuba.

Take a survey and see how many were taken there by significant other or parent or friend who took these people to the concert. But you are right, one concert, that means the whole world doesn't it? That would pay for a whole orchestra wouldn't it? Nevermind that you are talking about one orchestra out of the whole U.S. Nevermind you are pretty much/if not the only orchestra in Arkansas.How about all these other orchestras that don't even fill half of the hall up?All the ones that went under like the one in Miami that Jay Bertolet was in? 4th of July is known for its music just as Christmas and Easter, etc. People do come for that.That's only a few days out of the year.

And just because Kanye West hires out string players doesn't mean he likes classical music, it means he likes the sound of the strings with the beat. Its the sound rappers go for, its less likely because they appreciate classical music. Its great when they do use string players because it gets them exposure, but that commercial was kind of insulting just like the other commercials I've seen on MTV that make fun of someone playing the tuba or being in band, etc.

Actually, if you read my post...I talked about another orchestra in the state...but there are at least 5 "good" orchestras in Arkansas and they all do really well. I just think you're blowing things out of proportion.

Oh, and if you read my post, I mentioned other concerts as well. We sell out all most all of our concerts and that's saying something with the Arkansas Symphony down the road.

I don't hate you or anything...I just find your posts ignorant. Do some research and listen to these rappers. They do have classical influences and get kids interested in playing these instruments. These kids that supposidly "hate" classical music b/c of rappers, but they are actually interested in learning an instrument b/c of these artists.

To the "purists", here's a quiz:

1. How many of you have listened to the fugue that goes along with the Pachelbel "Kanon in D"?
2. How many have listened to the entire Samuel Barber string quartet Op. 11, not just the Adagio movement?
3. How many have listened to the entire Karl Jenkins "Palladio" suite, not just an excerpt from the first movement? (AKA the DeBeers Diamond music) How many even knew it was by Jenkins?

I've got a confession--there are some works for which I enjoy the "thematic synopsis" more than the original work. The Franck D minor symphony is one of those--the unabridged thing just seems to go on and on, but the synopsis hits all of the high points in about a third of the time it takes to get through the first movement.

It's all music. I like beer and I like wine if either is good.

This commercial rocks the hizzouse, no question. It is interesting to note that a tuba player is visible the in end of the back row on the conductor's right...he can be made out quite clearly when they pan out on that half of the orchestra (even more clearly if you keep your finger on the pause button). Although Beethoven did not have the chance to write any parts for tuba, it is nice to know 50 Cent's version includes us.

Arkietuba wrote:I beg to differ. I just performed a "4th of July" concert with the CSO (Conway Symphony...not Chicago) at Lake Beaverfork. There were a few thousand people there just to hear the orchestra (and watch the fireworks after the concert). Keep in mind that this is in Conway, AR...this is a town in Arkansas that is not supposed to like classical music and yet, there are thousands there to see us.

This isn't uncommon here...every concert we give during the concert season is pretty much sold out. This is shocking due to the realative closeness of the Arkansas Symphony (about 20 miles).

Could it be that there's just nothing else to do in Conway, AK? In all seriousness, I think some people here are just TOO serious about this whole commercial. I just browsed this thread, but did ANYONE even mention that there was a tuba player in the commercial that's about Beethoven's music? UPROAR!! SCANDALOUS!!!! It's just a commercial and even if it got ONE person to notice classical music, then that's pretty cool. Now resuming the eating of tacos...

Ralph

ContraEuph wrote:Tex Tuba:

I didn't write that.

Yeah, I know. It was just a goof.

Ralph

TexTuba wrote: I just browsed this thread, but did ANYONE even mention that there was a tuba player in the commercial that's about Beethoven's music?
Ralph

Yeah, I did. A few posts back.

ContraEuph wrote:I wasn't the original poster of this, but I am close friends with the one who is and he isn't ignorant at all. He is the most multi talented musician I know and is really going to be something.

Aw, shucks.

The funny thing is, I started thinking about it, and my friends might have come up with something like this commercial as a joke. Problem is, I still think it hurts us when stuff like this gets out.

Here's the thing:

-I'm a classical euphonium player. I'm lucky to get gigs on that more than once a year. It might improve when I move out of Jacksonville. But for now, that's where I'm at.

-Due to the lack of gigs on euph, I, like so many of us euphers, have taken up trombone (mostly a lead player). I was getting three or four gigs on that a month at one time. I now just play mostly on Easter and Christmas, unless there's a paying gig, and the bass spot is taken. Which brings me to the next point.

-About three years ago, I took up jazz bass. For a while, I was getting a few gigs a month that paid very well (anywhere from $150 to $350). There's more frequency of gigs compared to classical. When's the last time you saw a string quartet/soloist in a coffee shop? They used to be frequent (from what my young self has read), but mostly, it's jazz, if it's any kind of "cultured" music. Now, in Jax, because of UNF, there are quite a few accomplished bass players in the area, so gigs aren't guaranteed. Which brings me to my next point.

-Around November, I finally started taking electric bass seriously. Something that has never happened before, I turn down gigs left and right. It pays the rent and bills, and keeps me fed. I have a few steady gigs. Problem is, they are mostly rock and country. There's even talk of me recording on an album that will be pushed hard in the country music industry, so I might be making a healthy profit on it, but we'll see. Not where I wanted to be, but right now, I'm just trying to finish up my last classes of undergrad and get ready for grad school. Everyone wants pop culture music. I VERY rarely play legit music outside of school for money; the closest is usually church gigs.

This is what I've seen so far. Compared to the vast majority of musicians (and quite of few of them on Tubenet), I haven't been around long at all. I feel I am accomplished on each instrument listed above, with electric bass being my weakest instrument. The proof shows itself time and again, at least the way I see it.

And no, there's no hate here, either.

Nick

Ever noticed the glazed look on the faces of bluegrass bassists? There's a reason for that!

Chuck(G) wrote:Ever noticed the glazed look on the faces of bluegrass bassists? There's a reason for that!

*Laughing pretty hard right now*

At each gig, I really hope to have a TV with closed captioning on it in plain view, or at least something equally entertaining. There hasn't been too many hotties at these gigs. Three chords and leaving me on the root is child's play.

Nick

ContraEuph wrote:Well Arkie tuba,

I could be wrong that there isn't more than one orchestra in Arkansas

Yes, you were wrong...do some research next time you make an assertion like that. I was trying to show that Arkansas (a state that's not known for the arts and culture) has a strong performing arts background.

ContraEuph wrote:But for you to assume that because they include strings that they genuinely "love" classical music is a pretty ignorant assumption.

Did I ever say "they love classical music"? No, I said that they do incorporate these instruments and they use classical influences in their music. Now, I know not all rappers do this...but the good ones do utilize instrumentalists.

ContraEuph wrote:my friend was hired out for one of these performances to play with a rapper and they didn't even pick them on talent, it was how pretty they were, and they were all girls. They didn't take a single guy. So do you think they really love classical music still?

Uhhhh...they have an image! And you just assume that all rappers do this. They don't. I had a friend (male) who was hired to play for 36 Mafia in Memphis a few years ago. They hired a lot of guys...and they did base it on talent since this guy was one of the best I've ever heard (too bad he broke both of his arms...).

ContraEuph wrote:I wasn't the original poster of this, but I am close friends with the one who is and he isn't ignorant at all. He is the most multi talented musician I know and is really going to be something.

And I never attacked him either...I said that the assumption was ignortant. Ignorant simply means that there is a lack of knowledge in the subject being discussed. I (as you can tell) love rap music. I grew up in the ghetto and I lived in that culture.

ContraEuph wrote:There is a very bad trend on here which I have made known several times that when one of the least known posters post their opinion, that one of the well known posters (like you) call them ignorant because you don't agree or you think you know better.

First off, I am not one of the well known posters here (thanks though). I never called him ignorant...I called YOU ignorant. Like I said earlier...ignorant just means you don't know what you're talking about. I lived the culture and I have friends that are classically trained musicians that are also rappers. You're assuming that all rappers hate classical music and disrespect it. My point is, just do some research before you make assumptions...b/c you know what happens when you ASSUME...

Matt "who's tired of wild assertions and assumptions with little, to no proof" Smith

ContraEuph wrote:If you are "too busy with other things" Rick, maybe you should think because this is the future audience for those of us that want to do make a career out ofthis. Also future donors for orchestras.If all we have is an audience of non-appreciating adults in the world, that means no orchestra cds will be recorded or solo cds. No more live concerts.

The success of orchestras does not depend on what we force regular people to do by regulating their cultural intake, even setting aside the patronizing assumption that there is any way to do so.

The success of orchestras DOES depend on what ORCHESTRAS do to appeal to their audience. The frequent nose-in-the-air purism is as exclusionary as the assumed disregard of classical music by whoever it is the purists are complaining about at the time. And the "Pops" programs, which are supposed to appeal to the masses, appeal generally to the same people as the regular classical concerts when they are in a less formal mood, by my observation.

Nearly EVERYONE has heard fine orchestral music within the last year. That ridiculous assertion is based on what I have heard in the movie theater. That's where our most talented composers (successfully) ply their trade, and where some of our most successful working musicians perform. Why aren't we commissioning works from these composers for performing orchestras? Why aren't we performing concert arrangements of movie music the way we perform concert arrangements of ballet and opera? Did the orchestras of Mozart's time spend most of their time playing Renaissance music? What about ensembles during the Renaissance? What did they play? I'll bet that those groups had a careful eye cast in the direction of those paying the bill, whether it be commoner or king.

This goes with my theme that the buyer determines the market. We cannot force people to appreciate what they don't appreciate. The best we can do is to persuade them to appreciate it by presenting it in a way that speaks to them. I didn't say it was easy, and I don't have the formula for that success at my fingertips. But as I look around the classical scene, I don't even see many people in real authority asking those questions.

Anyone going into a line of work that they expect to feed them should consider carefully whether what they offer is what people want to buy. As I have said before, the most successful companies focus on those things they enjoy doing, that they do better than anybody, and that their customers are willing to pay for.*

Strong words, yes, but to my thinking important. I am not immune to them even in the work that I do, or perhaps especially in the work that I do, which required just as much long-term dedication and training and career-building as a commercial music performer, and which isn't much less fragile.

Listen to Tubajoe the next time he speaks truth on this topic. Your success will never exceed what you make of the opportunities placed before you.

Rick "who doesn't like rap but that's beside the point" Denney

* The Hedgehog Concept, from Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap...And Others Don't by Jim Collins