Patents and... (Kellyberg followup)

[TubaTodd]

Recently I posted a thread asking feedback from TubeNetters (I believe that is a word ) regarding their experiences playing on Kellyberg (plastic-ish) mouthpieces. I recently received 3 mouthpieces and I am amazed by the quality and sound. My Kellyberg Helleberg (say that 10 times fast) has been GREAT!!! It may be premature, but I might like it better than my gold Conn Helleberg.

Seeing as the Kellyberg line of mouthpieces feature copies of very popular brass mouthpieces (that have been replicated by other manufacturers), I was wondering how patents come into play. Can Kellyberg legally make a line of mouthpieces that resemble the Perantucci line? Perhaps they could call them KB-88, KB-65, etc. Can they make copies of other mouthpiece lines (ie. Mirafone, Schilke, Monnet, etc) and keep it legal?

[DonnieMac]

Don't think so. Save for Parduba mp from the '40s haven't seen any patent numbers on mp's. Thus we can conclude they are public domain items free for anyone to copy, sell or use. The mp numbers are considered "part numbers" just like for your computer or car with no special trademark meaning attaching to them. But mostly we should be working out on our horns and just doing this during rest periods.
Cheers,

[Mikelynch]

For those interested, it may be possible still for someone to invent a new mouthpiece design that would be patentable, but if one were to play the odds, it's probably not too likely to happen for the contours of the mouthpiece. Without getting into a treatise on patent law, for something to be patentable, it must be different from what was known before the possible invention (termed the "prior art"), and it must be "non-obvious" to a person of skill in the art (here, presumably the art of designing and/or manufacturing brass instrument mouthpieces) who has knowledge of all that prior art. Additionally, a patent has to be applied for within a given time period (that requirement has many aspects, but the most commonly applicable one is that it must be filed within 1 year from the first public written description of the invention or of the first offering of the invention for sale).
In the late 1800's and early 1900's a number of patents were filed on brass instrument mouthpiece designs (just as they were on valve configurations and other aspects of instrument design). Mouthpieces are a good example of more and more variations being manufactured, and then becoming a part of the prior art that a new design would have to be non-obvious over, in order to be patentable. Most of the common variations we think of, such as cup shape, rim contour, etc. would be considered matters of design choice to a skilled designer, not sufficiently different to be patentable.
For those wanting to see what has been patented in the past, brass mouthpieces are generally classified by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (in an arcane classification system) in Class 84, subclasses 398 and 399 (adjustable mothpieces). Here is a link that may work to get you to a search for subclass 398:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... %0A&d=pall
More than anyone wanted to know...

[Rick Denney]

In addition to what Mike said about prior art and non-obvious designs, we should remember that patents are not permanent. They last 14 years, and are perhaps renewable for another 14 years, though I'm not sure of that.

It's the reason why New and Improved versions of products come out, so the improvements can be patented, maintaining the brand value. The no-name brands in stores are often made by the company that makes the name brand, but using their previous design.

The permanence issue counts in the discussion of mouthpieces. I can think of only a few things in mouthpiece development that would not long since have passed into the public domain, and that's the use of extra heavy designs and the use of specific mechanical interfaces to allow mixing and matching of component parts, ala Doug Elliott.

Certainly the Conn Helleberg could be copied without any difficulty at this point. Its patent must have run out ages ago. The Bach mouthpieces are routinely copied and offered by other companies.

Rick "who suspects the Kellyberg is not exactly like a Conn because Kelly though the changes would be an improvement" Denney