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Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:00 pm**

This is actually something I had to deal with this past year.

I was playing in a large concert band with my Gronitz PCK and a PT-83, and I was far too dark for the ensemble. Clarity has always been a big point with the big tubas, and I lacked a trombone section supporting me to give me the extra clarity I needed on pieces such as Holsts second suite. not to say it was muddy, but that the sound was dark enough that it didn't cut enough for a solo line. However, in an orchestra this sound is perfect because it's dark, especially for blending with the string basses. This is one of the big differences I have found between band and orchestra, is that the string basses become the darkest of instruments, whereas in a band you are the absolute bottom of the group. Orchestra invovles alot more tutti sections with trombones, brasses, or other bass instruments, which I find is a good reason to have a darker sound, because you are supporting them, but in a band if I'm doing a solo I need a much brighter sound to cut a little more.

Just my $.02

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:18 pm**

An interesting subject!

I have some experience in both bands and orchestras and there are four points I would make.

1) The range which needs to be covered in orchestras is generally much larger than in a concert band, particularly if it is a composer such as Elgar. This means a mouthpiece good for the high register, as well as the low. A large mouthpiece which may be suitable in band, therefore may not be the job for orchestral playing.

2) The tuba in the orchestra is not the bass of the group - that goes to the string double basses. The purpose of the tuba is therefore mostly to provide color to the ensemble sound, or to act in almost a small ensemble way as bass to the brass section.

3) Playing in concert band, the tuba has a lot more to do, so a mouthpiece that enables good stamina in most important.

4) In the concert band, the tuba is usually one of a section, so blending within the section is important. In the orchestra, you want to maintain a district individual color.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:20 pm**

I agree with everything tubaguy56 has to say.
But, on the flip side, bands of yesteryear used 24" bell 6/4 BBb tubas that would have a "pillowy" sound underneath the group, while at the same time orchestras were switching to CC tubas in the 3/4 to 4/4 size range for more clarity.
So, dark or bright? blend or cut?
The answer, is YES.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:24 pm**

Bob1062 wrote:And YES I've played in both quite a bit

Than just use your ears, and answer you own question.

In an orchestra, you're the ONLY tuba, and you may be sitting next to a chainsaw bt or not. The pieces, voicings, composers, and conductor change, requiring that you anticipate, not react.

In a band, there may be other tubas, a big trombone section, OR NOT. And the mix of roles you provide changes more often, as well. You play more, making endurance more of an issue. You often play a very different style of repertoire than orchestral music.

What works is what allows YOU to adjust YOUR ROLES best. And that involves knowing what's going on, and listening to how it's going.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:02 pm**

In an orchestra,the tuba plays many roles.Bass voice of the brass choir,bass voice of trombone quartet,extra set of timpani,4 or 5 extra string basses,extra bass clar or bassoon,bass voice of a horn choir,soloist,member of the bass/cello section,etc.You need a flexible horn that can sound like what it needs to sound like.Find a horn that allows you to be what the music dictates,while still making you happy and allowing you to be you.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:35 pm**

Bob1062 wrote:Frankly, I think it's all BiggleSwaggle that some people throw around to look smarter.

I'm thinking that I agree. I have played in both, and can't recall any desire to make a different sound in each.

There's a bit of a snob factor, too. You often hear comments implying that what's good enough for band is not good enough for orchestra, when talking about groups at the same level. In my opinion, band music is more difficult in groups at the same level. That same level thing is important: No fair comparing tuba requirements in a community band to a professional orchestra.

The range requirements for a medium-grade amateur orchestra are no more than for a medium-grade community band, with the sole exception that there is no section to hide behind. I often needed a more soloistic concept in orchestra, but I hear that same concept from superior tuba players in high-end bands. But the duffer amateur orchestra was not programming the big, difficult stuff, and the high-end bands are playing stuff that demands huge ability from the tuba players.

I can't recall ever choosing equipment on the basis of using it only in band or specifically for orchestra. In fact, an orchestral performer would be able to get the job done with any of my instruments, I suspect, even though I use them in band.

Rick "bravo sierra" Denney

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:13 pm**

A horn prof I know (Bill Hoyt at Akron U) uses the same equipment for everything he plays, brass 5, wind 5, orchestra, solo, whatever. He has the ability to change his sound totally to sound perfect in every situation.

Amazing, and inspirational.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:24 pm**

Re: "pillowy" sound -- exactly why I use a Wick 1L indoors -- on my Miraphone it gives that kind of breadth, if not the total 6/4 volume.

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:36 am**

So...what do you folk think about the idea of playing a PT-6 in a July 4th band concert?

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:10 am**

Nothing wrong with playing a Pt-6 in a band.

I should've been more concise in my first post, as I am often not. I like a really dark, big sound, for a great deal of my orchestral playing (there are exceptions, most people know what these are, ie berlioz, solo passages). However, if I play that dark in a band or wind ensemble, I'm not appropriately fitting my role. Frankly sometimes having a sound that dark just does not work in the texture that a band produces. Frankly, in many cases it's a much brighter sound. But if I'm in an orchestra, in any given tutti section, there are string basses, and cellos, and a bass clarinet, and a couple bassoons, I like playing dark to fit in somewhere there.

However, I like playing rather darkly (darker than most), when it comes down to it, it's personal preference, some guys think the sound between the two are the same, I personally do not.

Bo "thinks everyone just needs to study up and make their own decision" Atlas

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:42 am**

bloke wrote:Don't chat with the conductor.

I don't understand why not? I usually chat to the conductor. Good idea to get on friendly terms and an idea of what sound they are looking to hear.

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:11 am**

Neptune wrote:
bloke wrote:Don't chat with the conductor.
I don't understand why not? I usually chat to the conductor. Good idea to get on friendly terms and an idea of what sound they are looking to hear.

As for tuba, most of them have no idea what sound they want to hear. You play it for them and if they don't scrunch up their face it's ok. Now it's totally different for bass trombone. They walk in expecting a chain saw so the first sound they hear results in a scrunch. You play the exact same way on the recapitulation and get a smile, maybe even a favorable comment. Go figure? It has taken me 4 years to train my conductor to just leave me alone and things will turn out ok.

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:10 am**

Neptune wrote:
bloke wrote:Don't chat with the conductor.
I don't understand why not? I usually chat to the conductor. Good idea to get on friendly terms and an idea of what sound they are looking to hear.

Understand that Bloke's idea of a successful gig is when the Maestro never utters the word "tuba".

Rick "thinking great tuba playing is conspicuous mostly by its absence" Denney

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:16 am**

Tubaguy56 wrote:Nothing wrong with playing a Pt-6 in a band.

Say, Dr. Sloan: Looks like you got someone.

The good doctor was not asking the question for his personal edification. In fact, he doesn't own a PT-6. He was pointing out that while people complain that a given tuba isn't appropriate for orchestra, they rarely complain that an orchestral instrument isn't appropriate for band. If I'm misreading him, I'm sure he'll correct me, heh, heh.

I listened to the Ohio State Wind Symphony play a superb concert a few weeks ago. The tuba players were all playing variations on the PT-6: largish front-action piston CC tubas that would be at home in any orchestra. They sounded just like I would want orchestral tuba players to sound: Rich and colorful.

The tuba is a color voice in the orchestra, as has been pointed out. Trying to out-dark everyone else undermines the color the tuba can provide.

Rick "the opposite of dark is not bright" Denney

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:40 am**

13 if I ever heard it!! wrote:Show up on time...
...in the right clothes...
...without a bad odor...
...with some sort of "tuba"...
...probably some sort of "mouthpiece" is a good idea...

Don't chat with the conductor.
Don't stick around more than five minutes after the gig.
Don't argue with your colleagues...
...and don't play in the rests.

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:20 pm**

Rick Denney wrote:I listened to the Ohio State Wind Symphony play a superb concert a few weeks ago. The tuba players were all playing variations on the PT-6: largish front-action piston CC tubas that would be at home in any orchestra. They sounded just like I would want orchestral tuba players to sound: Rich and colorful.

Naxos has a CD (8.570244) by this group that features a transcription of the DvorÃ¡k Serenade for Strings in E major. Normally, I'd say, 'feh, who cares?" but it's very good and played with sensitivity. The fourth movement is to my ear, the weakest, but it's well worth a listen, nonetheless.

While I could hear string bass in this transcription, I'm not sure about tuba.

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:32 pm**

Rick Denney wrote:
Neptune wrote:
bloke wrote:Don't chat with the conductor.
I don't understand why not? I usually chat to the conductor. Good idea to get on friendly terms and an idea of what sound they are looking to hear.
Understand that Bloke's idea of a successful gig is when the Maestro never utters the word "tuba"

... or looks across the orchestra to say, "Nice job, tuba!"

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:52 pm**

windshieldbug wrote:... or looks across the orchestra to say, "Nice job, tuba!"

Even that is dangerous, unless it's a real solo. I'd rather the conductor just take me for granted.

Rick "now speaking for himself" Denney

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:05 pm**

Rick Denney wrote:
Tubaguy56 wrote:Nothing wrong with playing a Pt-6 in a band.
Say, Dr. Sloan: Looks like you got someone.

naah. I just wanted the opportunity to point out that I sat next to a PT-6 in community band the other night.

Sounded pretty good to me.

Posted: **Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:09 pm**

Rick Denney wrote:
windshieldbug wrote:... or looks across the orchestra to say, "Nice job, tuba!"
Even that is dangerous, unless it's a real solo. I'd rather the conductor just take me for granted.

Rick "now speaking for himself" Denney

And for me.

When the conductor says "nice job, tuba!", one has to wonder "you mean, compared to my usual rotten job?"

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