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The closest things to standard large mouthpieces are:

1. Conn Helleberg
2. Bach 18

Everything else is a variation on the above. Arnold Jacobs's mouthpieces were a bit smaller than the Conn Helleberg.

In my opinion, enough top pros have played their entire careers on one of the above to refute any idea that they can hold you back.

The 18 is the typical cup, and the Helleberg is the typical funnel. Cups are brighter sounding (though when you want that brightness, it's called "color"), and funnels are less bright. Some funnels a unbright to the point of being dull.

If you want a bigger mouthpiece than the Helleberg, there are many to choose from, but they are not standards by any means. They come and go in fads. A couple of years ago is was the Laskey 30H (guess what the "H" stands for). Before that, it was the PT-88. Now it seems to be the Loud, or the G&W, though frankly I don't pay much attention to mouthpiece threads.

Personally, I think the 88 is too big for most players. The older I get, the more I realize that the temptation to use a larger and larger mouthpiece is in response to a weakness somewhere. Sometimes it's just an ego thing. I always wanted a bigger mouthpiece to get a bigger sound, but my real problem is a lack of embouchure strength, or air power, or both. The bigger mouthpiece gives me a wider sound, but not a deeper sound. It's like turning down the treble instead of turning up the bass, with a resulting loss of clarity. Turning up the bass requires something more than the mouthpiece, I suspect. I've stopped getting bigger mouthpieces. Some of my mouthpieces are bigger than a Helleberg, but none of them are as big as a PT-88.

If you are just experimenting, take small steps and let them settle in for a while. It takes several months to really get a sense for the mouthpiece fit.

Rick "who uses a Conn Helleberg as the standard Elephant Room test mouthpiece" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:The closest things to standard large mouthpieces are:
.... Bach 18

Would you really consider the 18 large? The 12 is large, and the 7 is BIG - nice Alex-ish tone. I always thought of the 18 as being medium to medium large, and the 22 as a good starter or transition mouthpiece.

I have seen the PT-88 mentioned a few times, it has a funnel counterpart in the PT-50. Both may be bigger than many people need.

While you are still settling into a well-functioning embouchure, you may be tempted to try to fix your sound with a mouthpiece. It won't work. You can only fix your sound by ... fixing your sound. If your sound is strident....your sound is strident. Not trying to demean you; just trying to save you some money.

The poster who jokingly asked for a teacher in the Chicago area to take you on....really was also trying to do you a favor.

MA

MartyNeilan wrote:Would you really consider the 18 large?

There's a difference between "the standard large mouthpiece" and "look at the size of that sucker!"

By "large" I took it to me the standard mouthpiece that would be used on a large tuba, and by large tuba I mean a full-sized contrabass instrument. I'm thinking "standard" here.

Lots and lots of pros have used 18s and Hellebergs on their full-size contrabass tubas for their whole career. Others might be bigger, and still others smaller. But they aren't standards.

I think the standard F tuba mouthpiece is the PT-64. I don't much like it, but it's the standard and everything else gets compared to it.

Rick "there is no standard 'oversized' mouthpiece for contrabass use" Denney

Bob1062 wrote:I'm just interested in something that may work better when I try out large contrabass tubas. I know I can make a small mouthpiece work in a large contrabass, but when I'm playing a tuba at a store or a conference I don't have a week or 2 to work on it.

I think the Conn Helleberg really is the choice here. It's probably not optimal in any one application but it seems to work on nearly all instruments pretty well. You don't have to worry that it's too small and therefore holding the instrument back.

Rick "who thinks a first-time trial is all about compromises" Denney

Bob1062 wrote: I am not particularly fond of the Helleberg, and would like something a bit bigger.

This would really just be a "starter" big contrabass mouthpiece; my only big issue is that I prefer somewhat thinner rims (definitely NOT 24AW-ish). I do like the rim on my Bach 18.

Is the rim what you don't like about the Conn Helleberg?

A Wick 1 or 1L is about as deep as it gets, a true funnel with a 1.28 inch, or 32.5 mm internal cup diameter, and an 8.43 mm throat.

If you want to compare cup diameters, go here:

http://www.ibowtie.com/tubampccharts.html

the largest one listed is a Tilz 5 @ 35mm diameter.

If you want to compare some depth of cup, go here, (very limited compared to the above chart):

http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html or
http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html

I can tell you the Kelly 18 is deeper than a Bach 18, and a Curry D cup is similar, a little shallower than a Wick 1.

As far as size, most contrabass players use somewhere from a 32 mm to 33.5 mm cup diameter. Just look at the first chart to see how many manufacturers have models in that range compared to outside that range. I said most, not all. Some bass trombone doublers, like a friend of mine, use smaller, but they can get the low notes because of their practice with pedals on bass bone. Very few use the real bathtubs that are larger, but they are out there.

If you're not looking for a Helleberg, a PT 50 or a PT 48 might be a good thing to look at.

I can't feel comfortable calling the Bach 18 a standard large mpc -- it's much closer to the diameter of the Conn 7B or the Wick 2 -- about 32.2mm cup diameter, iirc. Maybe a lot of pro players use it, or USED to use it -- if so then I suppose it could be called a "standard". But it seems most mpcs range from between about 31.5 to 33.5mm, with anything smaller or larger being rather unusual. Hence, in my book, anything smaller than 32.5mm can't be considered "large" although it might be considered a "standard".

I was recommended to use a Bach 18 as a "standard" mpc as my first "personal" mpc as an adult amateur tubist many years ago. It felt fine then, but I've grown very fond of the (standard sized) Helleberg and use it a lot. I've recently found that the PT-44 has a similar sound, but with some qualities my ear likes better -- maybe just a little smoother, with a bit more fundamental (to my ears). For ME, a "standard", "large" cup mpc ... doesn't exist. Too many choices, and no "standards". PT64 for F, PT72 for a big F or Eb, PT88 for "huge". I actually like the Bach 7 megatone as a big, medium-deep, slightly more cup shaped mpc (my take on it). Not as big as a PT88, but with a bit of the edge of the 88.

As Bob is a big guy, I'd recommend you consider:

Conn Helleberg, Schilke Helleberg II, PT-44, PT-48, Bach 12, Bach 7, PT88 (those are the ones I know of, mostly from lips-on experience).

Cheers,

Thirty years ago there were so few mouthpieces that most everyone played the Bach 18, the Conn Helleberg, or the old Mirafone C4. Those were always considered the “middle-of-the-roadâ€

If you like Vincent Bach Mouthpieces, the Bach 7 is a pretty large mouthpiece...I liked when I played on it, but then switched to a Helleberg...


-Davy

I really like the PT-83, as do several others I know, including some very reputable tubists. just another one to consider....

Steve Inman wrote:I can't feel comfortable calling the Bach 18 a standard large mpc...

Remember Bob has been playing small Eb tubas and wants a middle-of-the-road mouthpiece to test large contrabass tubas. He wants something bigger than a Helleberg, and I'm telling him that a Helleberg is more general than anything bigger.

You guys are overthinking this. You are comparing "large" to the range of currently popular big mouthpiece, not to the range of contrabass tuba mouthpieces. I typically walk into the Elephant Room with a Helleberg in my pocket--any tuba ought to work reasonably well with that mouthpiece. I prefer the PT-48 for my Holton, but it's a little strong sounding on the Miraphone, and makes the Miraphone a bit more laser-like than it already is. And the Elliott that I prefer on the York Master is a bit too big and fuzzy on the Holton or other really big tuba. But the Helleberg is a functional and predictable mouthpiece on all three instruments.

And if you prefer a cup-shaped mouthpiece (which I don't), Bach 18 = Helleberg. Put the rulers away--this shouldn't be an exercise in comparing measurements. A Bach 7 is not a standard mouthpiece. It's a huge, oversized mouthpiece. Ditto the PT-88. Both will present a real challenge to focus on some instruments. Finding out that a Bach 7 or a PT-88 makes a fuzzy sound on a certain tuba won't necessarily tell you that the tuba is fuzzy sounding. If it's fuzzy with a Helleberg, then you learn more.

There's something to be said for taking the mouthpiece you know by heart, because then you can make adjustments for it. But that was not the scenario presented in this thread.

Rick "think 'archetype' instead of 'standard'" Denney

the PT-88 is or was a popular large bowl shaped mouthpiece. The PT-50 is/was another popular large mouthpiece.

I don't know if I'd call them the standards, but they are popular and they are large.

I just played a concert tonight and took the PT-88 and the Baer MP to see which one I'd prefer in the hall. The Baer, hands down. I was a huge fan of the PT-88, it worked very well for me, but the Baer just works better for me now. High playing or low, it works better for me. I play a Mira 186.

It isn't a large mouthpiece. I was thinking, however, It might work just as well on a big Mirafone, like a 1291.

harold wrote:

Arnold Jacobs's mouthpieces were a bit smaller than the Conn Helleberg.

Arnold Jacobs was also not a huge man.

YOU GUYS! My goodness you are picking it to death. Sheesh.

What's the standard toilet bowl? American Standard. I prefer the extended, oval model. But that's me. I'm a big guy.

No, tuba player size is not correlated to mouthpiece size, unless you factor in an ego thing. Rim diameter is a comfort thing. It has to fit your jaw, not your biceps or posterior or jacket size.

In my observation, many of the most experienced players are NOT gravitating to the toilet bowls. They don't need them.

Mouthpiece fashions come and go. It was the PT-88. It's been the Dillon Geib, the MC1, the Laskey 30H, the Bayamo, the Loud, the MF-1, the PT-50, the Monette, the R&S Heavyweight. They ride the wave until the next wave comes along, and then we all go out and buy new stuff--again. I mean, which one of those is a standard? I can't think of a one that's really versatile and that would work on all contrabass tubas I might be trying out at a store. And only some of them are actually bigger than a Conn Helleberg.

But when they have lapsed into obscurity, the lowly Conn Helleberg will still be one of two mouthpieces most likely to be found on the shelf Art and Freida's Laundromat and Band Instrument Store. The other one will be a Bach 18.

Rick "TRVTH" Denney

A mouthpiece not mentioned is the MF2. Similar in size to an 18, but produces a better sound IMHO.

Obviously not a standard mouthpiece, but another one for Bob to consider.

Jonathan "who after having spent a fortune on different mouthpieces, has fixed on the moderately sized PT-90 for playing all his tuba"

One word for Bob: Marcinkiewicz

If you are playing a Miraphone 186 or other rotary of similar make, the Curry D is a good concert band mouthpiece: it comes in your choice of cup diameters, the bowl is mostly funnel and fairly deep, deeper than a Bach 18, as deep as a Conn Helleberg, but slightly shallower than a Wick 1. It has a slight curve in at the bottom that helps with intonation and gives just a little bit of feedback to your embouchure so you can tell where you're going with it. But it's not a parabolic curve like a Gieb cup with the "bounch" in the articulation, which, actually, a Kelly is more like. The throat is moderate @ .324, so you don't feel like you're giving up all your air. Those of you who are used to pushing enough air to sail a sail boat may find it a tad stuffy, but for those of us hackers who sit in community band and have barely enough air for that, it is great.

I still love the huge broad tone of my Wick 1, as its true funnel cup is @ 1 7/8 inches deep, and I'll play that on my Besson whenever I can, especially on marches and other repertoire I can breathe often.

I guess one of these days I'll have to try some of the PT mouthpieces, but with no dealer nearby, that will be a long while.

In general, the deeper the cup, the more control you must have of your embouchure because there is no "feedback" in the mouthpiece. So yes, sometimes, I absolutely shatter through my Wick when I get tired. But it's worth it.

Around Boston, the "standard" big mouthpiece has become the Laskey 30H. Bob, if you like more bowl-shaped cups, you might try the 30G.