Szell/Prokofiev 5th/1959

[Chuck Jackson]

Ok, so this turned up on my play list today. Generally I am very picky about Prokofiev and would have subbed it out with the St. Louis or LSO recordings. I thought I would let it spin, and I am glad I did. This is the most musical performance of the work I have ever heard. Taut and never lugubrious. The 3rd movement is the best rendition I have heard. And the tuba playing is stellar. Fat, thick, rich, and whatever other superlatives can be added. Chester Roberts sounds, well another superlative coming, astounding. I encourage all my brethren to get this recording. It is on the Sony Classical/Masterworks Heritage Series, MHK #63124. It is coupled with a Bartok Concerto for Orchestra from 1965. It will assume the #3 spot in favorites after the aforementioned St. Louis and LSO/Previn/Fletcher recording.

As an aside. My first tuba was an Alexander BBb/CC combination horn(you switched the main and 4th valve slides to accomplish this feat). I bought it from Paul Destito who bought from Peter Popiel who bought it from Chester Roberts. I can only assume he was using that horn on the recording. Don Harry owns it now, wonder if he would like to unload it?

Chuck

[8vabasso]

He used his Alexander F.

[Chuck Jackson]

I refuse to believe that. Given the size of the instruments of that day(smallish) and the sound he got on the recording, I am convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that it was a large CC or BBb. Listen to the last statement of the first movement (after the crescendoed chromatic line) on headphones and you will hear a gut wrenchingingly fat sound on the initial BBb's, a timbre no F tuba, even todays good ones, can match. And this recording was probably made with two to three microphones. The sound is too fat for an F, maybe too present for a BBb, but the jury is still out on that one.

Now, I am generally open to arguement, but after listening to the recording 6 times in the past 24 hours, 3 open and 3 on headphones, I stand by my ascertion. And I stand by the fact that this is the best tuba playing next to Fletchers I have ever heard on this piece.

I know that he used his Alex F for the majority of his playing. He has always been a favorite for his stunning musicality on everything he did, but now he is in the Pantheon of great tuba players. In the same league as Jacobs, Bell, Schmitz, LaGasse, Pokorny and the rest.

Chuck

[Jason Arnold]

Chuck,
How do you feel about the NY Phil/Masur recording of Prokofiev 5? It is my favorite, however I can't say that I have heard the Fletcher recording you speak of. I do know the 84 St. Louis Pokorny Special, but for me the NY wins out. Your thoughts?


Arnold

[Chuck Jackson]

Jason,
Thank you for your kind inquiry.

Let me state that, incredible as this may seem, I don't listen to music for the tuba playing. That being said, and knowing full well that I may have contradicted myself with my previous posts pertaining to the Clevelnad recording, I will have a go at your statement.

From a tuba players standpoint, the Masur/NYPO recording is quite good. From an interpretation standpoint, I find it lacking for the following reasons.

1.The ensemble is too slipshod for my tastes. Too many entrances that don't line up, some bad intonation(especially in the 3rd movement) that don't need to be there in this day and age. Alot of people would but these quibbles under the "artistic liscense" category" I find it a poor excuse when you have an instrument such as the NYPO at your command.

2. Masur is the absolute worst person to intepret the Soviet school. The guy's expertise lies wholly within the German Romantic tradition. He really is out of his league in 20th century music as is evidenced by his bad performances of NYPO world premieres and 20th Century recordings. That being said, I believe Previn to be THE interpreter of Prokofiev and Shostakovich. I can cite numerous examples of comparative listening that would bear this out to even the most hardened listerner. Mvarinsky was probably better, but the orchestral forces at his command were so abyssmal that they couldn't live up to his thought process. I think Szell scored a once-in-a-lifetime goal with his Prokofiev 5. The sun moon, and stars had to have lined up on this particular recording, this just wasn't his repetoire.

3. I believe the LSO/Previn recording to be the benchmark of this work because he had an orchestra to meet his vision. The St. Louis recording I like for it's pungent tuba playing. I think Slatkin is a veritable hack, a cult of personality as it is, and has even less crediblitity on the podium that Levine, but that is modern marketing for you. If Szell were in front of the best orchestra in the world right now, the results would be astounding, if he would have kept his job considering he was less than equitable in his dealings with his musicians.

All that being said, the Szell/Cleveland recording is my favorite because it takes a very clean approach to a bombastic, intense, and incredibly sublime work that demands a conductor look inward instead of listen outward.

To the tuba jocks out there: You may consider my remarks hubris. I defend them as a musician who happened to play the tuba, not a tuba player who took a stab at the music.

Chuck

[Billy M.]

You know Chuck, I was just researching as I plan to super build my 'reference' recordings for orchestral pieces with tuba emphasis... only 29 recordings of the Proko 5 and I didn't know what to pick... the not as well known Scottish National Symphony or someone like Masur and NYP or Szell and Cleveland.

So thanks for helping clear that up.

[Chuck Jackson]

Joe, I generally would agree. I have a number of SFSO recordings, and like them. I don't know if they have ever recorded the 5th, but it would probably be like all the MTT recordings I hear, very well done technically, musically flat.

I haven't heard anything done in America in the past 20 years worth owning with the exception of the Bernstein Copland/Harris 3rd Symphony set. With the talent in Europe and the more ensemble oriented European orchestras I find most American orchestras woefully behind the power curve. Levine, MTT, and Slatkin are more worried about their public personas than with the music they purportedly are trying to make.

The Bernstein/VPO recordings of Mahler and Bruckner are far superior to anything he did in the states. He found an orchestra that met his ideal. Too much of today's conducting is based on a cult of personality, not the music. I'll take the historic recordings anyday, where music was first.

No offense taken I hope, I have always valued your opinions and judgements.

Chuck

[Billy M.]

The Bernstein/VPO recordings of Mahler [...] are far superior to anything he did in the states. He found an orchestra that met his ideal. Too much of today's conducting is based on a cult of personality, not the music. I'll take the historic recordings anyday, where music was first.

<snip>

Chuck

I'm going to have to slightly disagree here, Chuck. Granted while the second Mahler cycle by him boosts a lil better recording technology and better sound, it is overall not that much better than the first cycle with the exception of the NY/Mahler 5 which while not a travesty is certainly outplayed by Vienna and NY/Mahler 1 that, while great, pales slightly to the Concertgebouw recording.

Still, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, & 9 of the first set are still top quality recordings. The 3 considered one of the finest renditions ever recorded (and who am I to disagree).

Perhaps an agree/disagree compromise must be met.

[Mike]

This is an interesting topic, and I especially enjoy discussions of musical enterpretation. However, I must take issue with some of the comments regarding the above mentioned conductors.

First and foremost, to reach the level that Slatkin, Tilson Thomas, Levine, and Masur reside in you absolutely cannot be a "hack". You may not agree or enjoy a given conductors approach on a recording. But, were you at the performance the night before? Every orchestral musician I've known over the years agrees that recordings are a sham, that it is the live performance that counts. I have my favorite recordings too, but take them for what they are, which is what the recording company thinks it should sound like. So, get out of the practice room and the lintening room once in a while and go hear a great orchestra or singer or chamber music ensemble live on stage performing at that very moment, that evening.

As far as the conductors mentioned above: Do you think a "hack can conduct full grand opera at the Met on a daily basis? Have you any idea what is involved in preparing an opera or an orchestra for major performances. The intellect and range involved are just amazing. I have been very proud to say that Leonard Slatkin hired me in St. Louis, and although I don't always feel he is the best conductor for a portion of the repertoire I have great respect for his ability. For the recording buffs, I would tell you that Leonard is just incredible in recording sessions. Also he can easily bring off performances of the most difficult and demanding contemporary compositions that many conductors would not even cosider programming. He is a fantastic performer of Gershwin, Tchaikovsky, Vaughn Williams, and Shostakovich. I know, I've been right there in the middle of it. Would he ever record a Brahms cycle? He knows better not to.

The same can be said of Tilson Thomas I am sure. I don't know Masur but I wish I could have. Another great young conductor is Franz Welsor-Most, the MD in Cleveland currently. He has his detractors too, but we did an incredible Brahms Requiem with him a few years ago, as well as perforformances of Mahler, Bruckner, and Shostakovich, all deeply moving for audience and orchestra.

So, keep the records and CDs turning, but go hear a concert, and realize what goes into it.

Mike Sanders
Principal Tuba
St. Louis Symphony Orchestra