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There ain't nothin' like a Bb tuba....
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:37 am
by Z-Tuba Dude
Like most of you folks in the US, I played Bb tuba (actually sousaphone, at first) in my formative years.
Also, like many of you, I made the switch over to CC (sold the Bb, to finance it). I would like to say that I am VERY pleased with the CC horns that I play on (4/4 & 6/4), and have and have enjoyed playing brass quintets, orchestras, and bands with them, for more than 20 years. I do continue to play Bb sousaphone, once in a while, just for parades.
And now the point of my post: A couple of years ago, I acquired an older King 1241 (w/both the recording & upright bells) off of Ebay. It is a very nice instrument, but I have not taken it to play gigs, very much.
Well, last night I took it out, to play for an outdoor concert band performance (w/recording bell), and I have to say, that even with the terrific sound of my CC horns, that there is something about the warmth of tone, of a Bb, that just "works" for the concert band literature.
I have played the 6/4 CC, with a lot of satisfaction, in some excellent concert bands. The sound is huge, but yet, focused, and clear. It is a great horn!
However, the King performed very nicely, especially in the low register. It just has this "string bass-ey" warmth, and presence, that sounds so "right" when playing the concert band parts.
I guess what I am getting at, is that even though we (especially in the US) exist in a culture of "serious tuba players" only play CC (& F) tubas, we should not forget how great Bb tubas can be!
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:18 am
by josh_kaprun
HERE HERE!!!
I agree that more or less no one over here in the states really gives BBb horns the credit they deserve. Personally, I prefer BBb horns to CC horns because they have (on the whole), a slightly darker sound to them. They just sound my tuba-ish to me. I have had to do a lot of breath/lung training in order to really be able to handle them as well as your typical CC player can handle his/her horn, but it has been totally worth it. After all, let us not forget that it is the player, not the horn (or its key), that matters.
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:25 am
by Paul Scott
Being a "B flatter" myself I heartily concur. Every tuba whether BBb, CC, Eb or F has its' place in music and there's no reason to put BBbs into a "lesser instrument" category. And IMHO a BBb is ideal for a concert band.
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:30 am
by josh_kaprun
That is Ben has a very good point about the quality of the horn. While I currently play the standard 186, I am ultimately going to buy a Wilson 31000S. I got to play on that horn for the first time at ITEC last year and was just blown away by it (no pun intended).
Something I noticed very quickly when I started looking for my first horn is that very few companies actually make "professional level" BBbs. In fact, the only 3 that I currently know of are the Wilson 3100S, the Miraphone 1291, and the Bessons (I just discovered those on their new website). Other than that, it just kind of seems that, at least in the Contrabass Tuba realm, that everyone has been focusing on CC tubas. Lucky for us BBb-ers that those (I've played on the Wilson and the Miraphone ... I'm just going to assume that the Bessons are great) are some killer horns! If you really want to understand what I'm talking about, check out the Instruments section of the Meinl-Weston page and compare the BBb section with the CC section.
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:32 am
by TubaSteve
I love the sound of BBb with concert band music. I know what you mean about the melow warmth that I almost call the "American" sound. My Reynolds recording bass has that fill the basement sound that is different than the sound of my Meinl Weston 25. I love both horns, but they are different. That said, I have a fellow that I play with that plays a Holton CC with us. I find that the sound from that horn somewhat lacking, especially as he is a very good player. (I don't mean all CCs, it is just this one)
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:50 am
by KarlMarx
ben wrote:So. Where is that picture of Bobo and the G tuba? Its the next fad, I tell ya.
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:49 pm
by Wyvern
Doc wrote:25(?)
Well, the M-W 25 is used by professionals in Germany - I saw one used in the Munich Philharmonic this year. They are fine instruments - particularly in gold brass.
The B&S GR51, 3103 and 3301 can surely also be added to the list, as can the Gronitz PBK (the only piston 6/4 made today?)
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:55 pm
by Dan Schultz
Neptune wrote:Doc wrote:25(?)
Well, the M-W 25 is used by professionals in Germany
There are a few of the 25's scattered around the US. ... Leftovers from the 70's when bigger was supposed to be better for high schools. Marketed by Getzen here in the US, the 25 was nearly identical to the 20 except for a bigger bottom bow and bell. Some of them has all but the main tuning slide on top. I just sold a pretty nice example of a Meinl-Getzen 25 a couple of weeks ago.
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:57 pm
by chipster55
I've played C, Eb, & F tubas, just to try them out, and they were fun to play - and too expensive for my budget. So I'm content to play my Bb and when I'm able to buy a nicer horn, it will be another Bb.
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:13 pm
by KarlMarx
Doc wrote:BBb of a more serious, professional nature:
Rudy Meinl - several models, Bayreuth being the top grade
Meinl Weston - Fafner, 25(?)
Miraphone - 1291, 191, 186
Willson - 3100
Alexander - 164 Kaiser
Hirsbrunner - HB 1, HB 6 (BBb version)
B&S - PT 1
Spelling: Pferdearsch
Translation: Not provided
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:53 pm
by GC
Oh, for a Baer or Yamayork (Yorkaha) in BBb. Not that I could buy one.
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:20 am
by iiipopes
Are BBb Bessons considered professional? Well, strictly, no. But in the same way that Black Dyke, Grimesthorpe, Fodens, etc., even though top flight contesting brass bands, are not considered "professional," either, but can blow the hell out of most other ensembles regardless of genre.
187 was also left off the list earlier.
Pferdearsch
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:00 am
by tubeast
The use of the letter "e" in abovementioned expression is due to a more elegant and fluent speech, it´s not a matter of grammar. Just like the way you have two words for "ein":
"a" as in "a car" and "an" as in "an apple".
It´s like driving a car: it is more elegant to make a u-turn than to do a 3-point turnabout.
As to the proper translation: literally, it is correct to translate "horse´s rear" with "Pferdearsch". The meaning is different, however. I understand "horse´s rear" describes a person´s attitude/state of mind while relating to other people.
The proper use of "Pferdearsch" implies the description of (preferrably female) body proportions.
Thus, a person behaving like a horse´s rear does not have to be adorned with a Pferdearsch.
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:42 am
by LoyalTubist
KarlMarx wrote:ben wrote:So. Where is that picture of Bobo and the G tuba? Its the next fad, I tell ya.
I don't think so. Mirafone (in California) spent a fortune advertising it in the 1980s and it didn't get much notice. I think the same people now who are excited about it are the same kind of people who got excited about it in 1989.
Me and my Miraphones
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:14 am
by pwhitaker
Bob1062 wrote: ... I seem to recall Tubenetter "pwhitaker" mentioning that he got a 2 step slide from Miraphone for his Bb, which could also be an option (keeping 3 tuned for itself, and tune 5 exactly to 2+3 would much minimize slide pulling in the mid register).
Exactly. The only slide pull (4) I need with that setup is the 1+4 low Eb - about 10 cents sharp. The real advantage of the 2 step fifth is that the fingerings for low D, Db and C are much less onerous than with the normal 5th valve: D: 4+5 vs 1+4+5
Db: 1+4+5 vs 3+4+5 and C: 3+4+5 vs 1+3+4+5. Also the C is in perfect tune, as is the low B at 1+3+4+5. The low Bb (equivalent to the pedal) is about 5 cents sharp (1+2+3+4+5) but is doable with a slight 4th , 3rd or 1st pull. The low Bb thru the valves has a much more focused timbre than does the pedal and I like to finish some of the Trad jazz stuff I play with that note, where appropriate of course.
I haven't played either the Bayreuth or Fafner but if they are "better" than the 1291 than I want one. After years of Kings, Conns, Yamahas and Bessons I'm very much taken with both of my Mirafone BBb's - 186 4U recording bass and 1291 BBb. Both of them are almost as easy for me to play above the staff as were my Eb's, have splendid low registers (1291 in particular) and have excellent intonation and timbre throughout the entire range.
With my larger (35.5 mm) titanium mpc the 1291 has that "warm" sound down low that is characteristic of the larger american horns. The 186 is a marvelous street/outdoors horn.
Re: There ain't nothin' like a Bb tuba....
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:13 am
by Z-Tuba Dude
DP wrote:Z-Tuba Dude wrote:Like most of you folks in the US, I played Bb tuba (actually sousaphone, at first) in my formative years. Also, like many of you, I made the switch over to CC (sold the Bb, to finance it). I would like to say that I am VERY pleased with the CC horns that I play on (4/4 & 6/4), and have and have enjoyed playing brass quintets, orchestras, and bands with them, for more than 20 years. I do continue to play Bb sousaphone, once in a while, just for parades. And now the point of my post: A couple of years ago, I acquired an older King 1241 (w/both the recording & upright bells) off of Ebay. It is a very nice instrument, but I have not taken it to play gigs, very much. Well, last night I took it out, to play for an outdoor concert band performance (w/recording bell), and I have to say, that even with the terrific sound of my CC horns, that there is something about the warmth of tone, of a Bb, that just "works" for the concert band literature. I have played the 6/4 CC, with a lot of satisfaction, in some excellent concert bands. The sound is huge, but yet, focused, and clear. It is a great horn! However, the King performed very nicely, especially in the low register. It just has this "string bass-ey" warmth, and presence, that sounds so "right" when playing the concert band parts. I guess what I am getting at, is that even though we (especially in the US) exist in a culture of "serious tuba players" only play CC (& F) tubas, we should not forget how great Bb tubas can be!
Your experience may (just may) have to do with the particular tuba, and not so much for what its fundemental pitch is. By and large, the fact that a great horn (in any particular key) may exist does not equate to all horns in that key being great. In other words, just because A+B > C+D does not mean B > D, where "B" is the pitch of horn "A" and "D" is the pitch of horn "B"
What you say is true enough, but it is also true of CC tubas. Perhaps I should have said: "...we should not forget how great,
GREAT Bb tubas can be!"
Many CC tubas are wonderful instruments (I personally am
VERY pleased with the ones that I play!). There exist, however, CC horns that are not up to snuff, as profesional instruments, but that doesn't stop some people from generalizing about CC horns being "the" professional choice, though.
BBb
Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:09 pm
by Norlan Bewley
I love the BBb! I play a Holton "Harvey Phillips" model 331 most of the time. It's a wonderful tuba!
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:40 am
by Billy M.
Doc wrote:BBb of a more serious, professional nature:
Rudy Meinl - several models, Bayreuth being the top grade
Meinl Weston - Fafner, 25(?)
Miraphone - 1291, 191, 186
Willson - 3100
Alexander - 164 Kaiser
Hirsbrunner - HB 1, HB 6 (BBb version)
B&S - PT 1
I would like to add the Kanstul 5/4 BBb. That is a beast with a GREAT sound.
Re: There ain't nothin' like a Bb tuba....
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:21 am
by Z-Tuba Dude
DP wrote:But, IMO percentage-wise, the number of CC horns that are not "up to snuff" is still lower than the percentage of BBflat horns that "are great."
Agreed! --- My original post, though, delt will the quality of "B flat-ness" as a great addition to our tonal palette, which I found to work beautifully in concert band.
Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:02 am
by iiipopes