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I got this a week ago. It is a 4v BBb Lignatone (Amati/Cerveny) helicon, plays like a dream and with good intonation. And with really good valves.







Just had to show it to you....

It might though be for sale since I have a similar helicon that is in the shop at the moment. See below. I just have to decide which one to keep (can't have both I'm told ).

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a233/ ... IM0633.jpg

Nice horn. When was it manufactured?

I was told that the Lignatone stensil was only used from 1945 to the early fifties. There is some different numbers stamped on the horn, but none have helped me to date it.

Rubberlips wrote:It would be interesting to see a photo of your right arm and hand in playing position (lips on mouthpiece, fingers on levers).

I am current owner of the actual helicon that figures in some of the discussions you may have seen, a Lignatone Eb. (I'd like to post a picture of it here, hopefully this weekend I can get a shot of it from the same angle. Very similar. I'm surprised to hear it might be older than me - doesn't look it, and Søren's sure doesn't.)

My "avatar" image at this time is me, playing the Lignatone Eb. You won't see much detail, and maybe some spurious detail (I don't have a Charlie Chaplin mustache), but you get an idea of how it sits on me. I'm 6'2'', and fairly flexible. It's reasonably comfortable for me, on marches, standing, sitting, whatever, no real troubles, but your mileage might vary.

I believe this tuba may be similar in design to the current Cerveny Eb helicon, but I've never seen a picture of it. It's similar to Søren's, but his has probably significant differences in the placement of the valve section - it's a little more like duckskiff's Eb, I think - and that could make a noticeable difference. The Cerveny F helicon is quite different, because the bugle doesn't make a circle; it tends to fit easier, and it naturally hangs upright on you, which makes a bigger difference than you might think. American helicons don't always fit the best either, from what I've read, but at least they usually have a sousaphone style receiver, which may be floppy and leaky but at least is adjustable.

So it depends.

cool, I have always wanted to play one of those. I guess they still make them. One of the few helicons still being made.

ken k

Søren wrote:I was told that the Lignatone stensil was only used from 1945 to the early fifties. There is some different numbers stamped on the horn, but none have helped me to date it.

In Western Europe Lignatone instruments could be bought until some years after 1960.

Like with the relations between B&S and Weltklang the Lignatone helicon is acoustically the same as a Cerveny. Only the valve transmission is more old fashioned and maybe some nickel silver trim may have been omitted.

Maybe the Lignatone engraving has been used in some markets much more recently, than 1965. At least Søren's newest sample has the same wrap (tuning slide in the leadpipe) as the current Cerveny model:



As the smaller models have been mentioned, then here is the F version (the Eb versions of the Czech instruments often are very similar to the F’s - the Amati-Denak site does not have a photo of the Eb version):



Carolus Cervenicus

I'm curious as to whether these have low range idiosyncracies similar to rotary tubas of the same keys.

MA

MaryAnn wrote:I'm curious as to whether these have low range idiosyncracies similar to rotary tubas of the same keys.

Which idiosyncracies would these be? I have read a lot about the "low C" problem, but can't say for sure this doesn't also implicitly apply to the Bb, A etc. below it, nor for sure how severe it is in the most representative cases.

For me, Amati F and Lignatone Eb rotary helicons presumably very much like the Cerveny equivalents, play their low range just as well as could be reasonable expected of any tuba. Several ledger lines below the staff, of course they sound thinner than a contrabass tuba, but there isn't an abrupt drop-off at C.

The Eb in particular is a fairly large tuba. I used it once for the only tuba in a medium size band, playing the contrabass notes on divisi, and I thought it did OK, for a bass tuba. It is not very similar to the F, it's as different as it could be. I think the F has better intonation.

Rubberlips wrote:I'd really like to see a picture of somebody wearing these instruments with his fingers on the levers and his mouth on the mouthpiece.

The only photo that I know about, is not perfect, but close, as it shows a player standing with a 50 years old Cerveny BBb of a different wrap.

Go to

http://tinyurl.com/yu3sz6

Join.

Then go to

http://tinyurl.com/34gv3t

Carolus Pictogramus

Eb Lignatone helicon. No lacquer, I assume never was.


It's a fun horn, though not getting played much lately due to my infatuation with a '20s Eb Giant Bass.

I know some people have valid reasons for concern about tuba ergonomics. I personally haven't had any trouble (key point is probably that I don't play for hours per day), so I buy stuff like this through the mail without worries. If I did have issues like that, I think I would have to try a tuba in person first, and that goes at least double for helicons, Czech or American.

I have never had a problem with tuba ergonomics. I tend to adapt easily. Especially if I keep fit, my shoulder does not even hurt from 6 hours of straight sousaphone playing.
On my two BBb helicons I found that using the two bits from my sousaphone makes everything a little easier. Beneath is a picture of me holding the helicon in a position where it would be if I had the two bits and mouthpiece inserted.



It is quite possible to play the horn with out bits, and it makes the bell point more upwards.

BTW, I just sold the horn a couple of hours ago.