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I know it's standard procedure to cut down old American BBb's to CC, but how would it work to take an old, high-pitch, small-bell, small-leadpipe EEb (such as an Imperial) to F? Would it require less 'surgery' than extending all the tuning slides? Has this been done? I think the result would make a great solo/quintet horn.

Hi-
I have a terrific cut F tuba--it has an ancient 17" Martin bell (with 'U.S.N.' on the bell) and bows, a 1942 Conn .687 or .689 piston 4 front valve cluster (all replatted and refitted) and a Meinl or Meinl Schmitt (sp.?) 5th valve rotor (after the tuning slide)--all bare brass--it plays great. Similar in size to a Meinl 2182, but not as tall but with a larger bell and with a much better low range and improved sound. No intonation problems, open low/mid/high register, wonderful clear singing sound, etc. The work was done years back at Dillon's by Bob Shoop (sp.?) and then tweaked later by Matt Walters-I got it a while back from Scott Mendoker--here are some pics:
<a><img src="http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/399/martina.JPG" border="0"></a>
<a><img src="http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/399/martinb.JPG" border="0"></a>
<a><img src="http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/399/martinc.JPG" border="0"></a>
<a><img src="http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/399/martind.JPG" border="0"></a>
I meant to show it to Sam Gnagey when he was in town--I've used it in quintet, filing in with Buffalo Philharmonic, etc.--a very wonderful instrument--an Eb to F conversion can be done!
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com

the elephant wrote: Maybe your horn would be a good candidate to convert into a five-valved rotary or front piston F tuba. However, you cannot cut down all of the compensating loops (if it is a compensator) so you would have to ditch the existing valve set. If it is a three banger you would want to do so anyway. Why spend all that money on a horn that is so very limited?

Bob Rusk and Sam Gnagey are the ones to ask. Why not contact them privately. I am sure that others here hve contact info for both of them.

Good luck!

Unfortunately , I was speaking of a theoretical horn,:oops:
not one I actually own, but a vintage Imperial is towards the top of my 'Cool Horns I'd Like to Own' list. Just out of curiosity, what would be so tough about cutting down the compensator loops (other than the PITA [Pain In The ***] factor) , and would they need to be cut down all that much?

the elephant wrote:Some are not slides but are knuckles that are hard soldered into the casings on each end. They are of a fixed length.

Hmmm... you may be right. My sovereign euph does have a slide on the 2nd valve comp loop, albeit tiny, and maybe that's what I was thinking of, but on the horn pictured at viewtopic.php?t=23386 , (which insired the question in the first place) it does appear to be a solid knuckle rather than a slide, however 1 and 2 appear nice and long. Hmmmm... Maybe when I hit the lottery, I'll snag one and go all Rusk on it...

Here's a link to Rick Denney's page where he describes the process he took to turn an older Eb horn into an F:

http://www.rickdenney.com/cutting_Eb_tuba.htm

If a person is kind of handy with tools and doesn't go about it in a haphazard way, it looks like something that could be accomplished on those cold winter nights...

Rick usually drops in here a few times a week so he probably will read this thread himself.

Jeff "Just playing BBb is hard enough right now" Benedict

I disagree with the notion that "everyone" cuts down a BBb tuba to CC. There is always something that gets messed up when that happens. As far as I am concerned (and I do most of what I do on a CC tuba) there really is no advantage to making this change. You can get a better horn by simply buying another tuba, for about the same price, depending on the source.

The same holds for Eb and F tubas.

Learn the fingerings for every tuba you have.

LoyalTubist wrote:I disagree with the notion that "everyone" cuts down a BBb tuba to CC. There is always something that gets messed up when that happens. As far as I am concerned (and I do most of what I do on a CC tuba) there really is no advantage to making this change. You can get a better horn by simply buying another tuba, for about the same price, depending on the source.

The same holds for Eb and F tubas.

Learn the fingerings for every tuba you have.

I tend to agree with this statement. I've 'cut' a few horns and also built a few 'frankenhorns' with good results but I don't think there is any substitute for the research and development that goes into horns that are known to be good right out of the box. I even cut a BBb to Eb once with outstanding results. Why? .... simply because I have a few spare parts from horns that were known to be inferior, I had some time on my hands, and there was nothing to lose, and I just plain 'got lucky'! Would I agree to cut a BBb to Eb for a customer?.... probably not. Mainly because there is NEVER a guarantee that the end result will be good.

Find a horn in the key you want... play it... and if it's the horn for you... buy it. Don't expect good results from an experiment. After all... even great horns for some are not great horns for all.

LoyalTubist wrote:I disagree with the notion that "everyone" cuts down a BBb tuba to CC. There is always something that gets messed up when that happens. As far as I am concerned (and I do most of what I do on a CC tuba) there really is no advantage to making this change. You can get a better horn by simply buying another tuba, for about the same price, depending on the source.

The same holds for Eb and F tubas.

Learn the fingerings for every tuba you have.

I know it's not necessary to chop every single old, BBb BAT into a CC just because it's the cool thing to do, I was speaking of altering a horn that would need to be altered anyway just to make it playable in a modern setting. (on the other hand, I wouldn't want to see every single unadulterated high-pitch horn altered either, but that's beside the point...)

The Big Ben wrote:Here's a link to Rick Denney's page where he describes the process he took to turn an older Eb horn into an F:

http://www.rickdenney.com/cutting_Eb_tuba.htm

If a person is kind of handy with tools and doesn't go about it in a haphazard way, it looks like something that could be accomplished on those cold winter nights...

Rick usually drops in here a few times a week so he probably will read this thread himself.

Jeff "Just playing BBb is hard enough right now" Benedict

I've been in Alaska, and then on a remote mountain top participating in a radio contest for the last two weeks, with no Internet.

My cut-job didn't cost anywhere near $3000, or even $300. Maybe not even $30.

But you get what you pay for.

I will say that it's not any worse as an F as it was in Eb. And it's not actually all that bad on and above the staff. But while my regular tubas reside in the living room and get played, that one resides in the basement and gets brought out for tuba-playing visitors who want a laugh.

Rick "who turned a crappy old worn out 'solder-practice' Eb into a crappy old worn out 'solder-practice' F" Denney

The reason that cut jobs are always risky is simple:

If the tuba is out of tune in it's original form, it's only going to get worse in the cut form.

This is why most cut jobs are actually almost a conversion, where the bell and bottom bow are used, while new branches, leadpipes and valve clusters are mated together. It's very rare that a true cut job comes out anymore; as Bob Rusk was the only one that actually was doing cuts, most of the other technicians that have done tubas from one key to another are converting them.

The problem is that most Eb tubas are out of tune to begin with, so making them into an F is only going to make the intonation worse. Furthermore, the Eb's that are out there are either too large (ending up as CC tubas), or too small (not worth anything more than a plant), to make into a workable F tuba. There are exceptions, like Jones' tuba, as well as David Fedderly's York that he had Bob Rusk cut.

Just another person's opinion for what it's worth.

What Andy says also goes for an attempt to build a large bore compensating front action piston F tuba, the Besson 985. One source gives is dimensions to be these:

Demonstration/prototype Besson Sovereign F Tuba. 19" (480mm) bell, 4/4 size. Full compensation System. 4 Front Action piston valves. Diameter through valves No. 1-3 = 0.750" (19mm). Diameter through valve No. 4 = 0.790" (20mm).

Not even the BBb compers from the same maker had that large a bore. Only the bell diameters are identical. But where the BBb version has a fairly gentle expansion from the throat through the rim, then the 985 F version has a rather abrupt expansion of its flare.

Even if the 985, unlike any other Besson compensating tuba, was equipped with a large pull ring on the 3rd slide, then the intonation was considered unmanageable, and the project was cancelled after 10 prototypes.

Carolus Nonpullius

Hello:
How are you?
i'll probably have a Rampone & Cazzani 3-valved Eb tuba and i have intention to convert it on a 6-valved rotary F tuba (because originally is rotary valved), i chose this horn because i have used it for 5 years in a youth band, this instrument belongs to the police band, i want exchange it with a sousaphone tha i owned 2 years ago. What do you recomend for me?. Thanks.

I think it would be cheaper than buying a new B&S 3100 JBL, i'll acknowledge you if you can help me about who can do this work, someone who has a lot of experience on rotary horns.

The first F tuba that I owned was one of two Yamaha 321 Eb's cut down by Schilke. I believe this was the prototype that ended up being the 822 or possibly even the 621.
I bought it from an Army Tuba player in the DC area. It had four Top action valves and a side 5th piston. It had the best sound and response of any F tuba I've played. The intonation was abit quirky.
Scott Mendoker and I swaped horns and bought it back from one another a few times, but now resides with Josh Mandel, a fine tuba player in the Westchester area. The reason I couldn't use it was that the cut put the valves too high in relationship to the top bow. This eventually gave me a bad case of carple tunnel. I used this on my Masters recital at SFCM and remember playing the Broughton rather nicely on it. Scott used it at the Army Conference one year to play the David Sampson piece that was written for him. He may have even recorded with it. He sounded wonderful! Of course, Scott could play a shoe horn and make it sound good.

My other cut F tuba was a 3/4 Worchester Conn that was marvelous, except for a few intonation quirks. Here's a pic:



Scott owned this one too, and recorded Holsinger's "Kansas City Dances" on it.
Great recording on a cd dedicated to Holsinger's music.

the elephant wrote:Note the compensator loop between 2nd and 3rd.

Actually, the loop in the photo is just a pass through loop as part of the overall plumbing. The loops you are referring to are on the back side of the valve block, which are the actual loops that add the compensated length of tubing. #1 & #2 are fixed, and cannot be cut down to intonate properly in F and #3 is usually adjustable, but again, would be very difficult to cut down.

the elephant wrote:Regardless, that is pretty much what I said in my post -- six years ago...

Indeed. Thanks. Cheers!

1) Monster or Giant Ebs cut to $#!+. They end up with a very, very bad case of "German F Tuba" syndrome in the lower register.

2) You "could" cut the compensating slides of an Imperial Eb, but you'd end up with a small bell diameter version of the recent Besson F... which basically an unplayable monstrosity of a tuba.

3) I'd argue that a Besson Imperial/Sovereign/etc. is a 4-5/4 Eb. It's quite as big at any measurement from the leadpipe on as many 4/4 BBbs... it's just "cut short" from continuing to giganticness.

Look for and Eb of moderate to small size with the tuning slide before the valve section. Those often make very successful cuts. Been there, done that, had fun, enjoyed and then sold the results, except for one tiny 3 valver which I keep in case someone won't allow ophicleide or Euph for and ophi-part. It's actually an outstanding "American Standard".