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what makes a horn "bendable"?

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:03 am
by MartyNeilan
And I am not talking about when an angry spouse is hitting it with a mallet, either :?
What makes some horns slot perfectly in and others have a quarter tone of bendability on each side of the pitch? My 6/4 Martin is very bendable but my 4/4 MW 2145 much less so.
I figured it was only big horns that had easily bendable pitch, but my 4/4 Cerveny F is extremely bendable. Perhaps its the resistance provided by 6 rotors?
Any and all ideas will be underappreciated!

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:25 am
by Doug@GT
My Getzen is quite bendable--I can bend a C down a whole half step to a perfect B-natural. Great party trick.

I'd assume it has something to do with all the proportions, ratios, and other engineering/physics things between the bell, branches, bore, and leadpipe.

I'd also assume that the illustrious Mr. Denney will weigh in and inform us all. :D

For the record, my Mirafone 186 BBb is very un-bendable. There are advantages to both. It's easier to still play the right notes on the Getzen if I flub a fingering, that's for sure.

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:38 am
by CJ Krause
***

"lack of slot" or "bendable"

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:18 am
by Matt Walters
The first culprit to a horn lacking a good slot is a leak. Check water keys, alignment, etc. The next common cause is too large of a leadpipe and/or bore at the valve section. Large bore horns like a St. Pete or Yam 641 can be played perfectly in tune or perfectly out of tune. It depends on your ear and chops.

A more effecient horn (more slot, less bendable) increases your endurance because you don't have to lip every note in tune. Too much slot and you have to manipulate more slides to stay in tune. There is always a happy medium, but it varies from player to player.

Okay, that freshly bathed school tuba is dry enough. Back to work.

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:12 pm
by Chuck(G)
schlepporello wrote:Pitch was very bendable on my Buescher and I've also been able to bend on my 187. I'd always assumed it was the ability of the musician which allowed him to bend pitch, not the horn. Then again, maybe it's just me. I've always been able to play wrong notes. :wink:
Nope--playing the tuba inovles an oscillator (your lips) and a resonator (your horn). The coupling of the horn to your lips and the interaction between them produces the effect we call "slotting".

Every resonator has associated with it something called Q, or a "figure of merit". Basically, this is the ratio of the amount of energy stored per oscillation to the amount of energy lost. A fluffy down pillow has a Q of zero. A perfect resonator would have a Q of infinity (which is impossible, since some energy must be inevitably lost).

One characteristic of the Q figure is that it also correlates quite nicely with the width of the resonance peak, measured from the low side half-power point to the hgih-side half-power point. In fact,

Q = center frequency/bandwidth

If you want to make a horn slot less well, drill a hole in it, sandpaper the valves down, stuff it with cotton wool or put a few good-sized dents in it--anything that increases losses will degrade the Q.

Is a horn with a high Q a good thing? Not always--the slotting problem can be really annoying if the resonance peaks aren't in tune with the notes you're trying to play. The sound may be lacking in "warmth" as the horn tends to reinforce only selected frequencies. Response may suffer, particularly in things like lip slurs.

Our reaction to a horn with low Q is that it feels "stuffy"--that is, it doesn't return much of the buzzing energy back to our lips.

A peculiar aspect of this is that the tendency to "slot" may change when you go from loud to soft, because the frequency distribution of the sound produced by your lips changes as you change the amplitude of their vibration. So a horn that slots tightly when played fortissimo may not slot very tightly when played piano.

Art Benade's book "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" has lots of good stuff on this.

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:15 pm
by Chuck(G)
schlepporello wrote:OW! :oops:
You made my head hurt!
Be careful, please! I'm just an ignert truck driver. :lol:
Hey Wayne, do you collect truck-drivin' songs?

http://www.banned-width.com/shel/works/ ... cream.html
http://www.banned-width.com/shel/works/ ... sleep.html
http://www.banned-width.com/shel/works/downtotexas.html
http://www.banned-width.com/shel/works/truckdriver.html
http://www.banned-width.com/shel/works/whiplash.html
http://www.banned-width.com/shel/works/truckdriv.html

Uncle Shelby wrote "A Boy Named Sue" and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Image

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:36 am
by Chuck(G)
mandrake wrote: What the heck is this!?
It's a page out of "Uncle Shelby's ABZ Book", one of a number of wicked satires on childrens' books by Shel Siverstein published some 43 years ago. Here's the letter "H":

Image

Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:39 am
by imperialbari
viewtopic.php?t=2080&postdays=0&postord ... e&start=48
mandrake wrote:Wth did somebody decide to post that Elvis picture? Twice?? I'm scarred for life...
What a plain little hypocrite you are mandrake. You made a THIRD posting of a picture.

You truly have been scaRRed for life. Probably by brain fever.

A common saying would be: Go get a life!

In your case it hardly should be applied. But if, then your life hopefully will encompass at least a little sense of humour.

impbar