TubeNet

Can anyone give me some suggestions on where to start looking for grad schools? Im considering IU, Arizona State, Penn State, and possibly CCM. Is there anywhere else i should strongly consider, especially any smaller schools that I may not have heard of? Any info will help.

Michigan? Don't know if they have a particular graduate program for tuba performance but might look into it.

Depends on what your long-term goals are. Are you looking for a career as a professional performer? If so, you should only consider a small number of options. Pay specific attention to schools that have produced successful professionals (as opposed to schools with popular teachers).

If you're planning a career in education and want the graduate degree for the extra $$$, then just find a cheap, quick program.

You should consider USF (University of South Florida) in Tampa. Mr Hunsberger is an awesome professor and from what I understand is looking for a GTA for the 08/09 school year.

Can I interject that it really doesn't matter where you go to school. It is how much you work that really matters.

Consider this: If you go to a big school with a big reputation for churning out Tuba pros like IU or some conservatory, you will be in a studio with a lot of tuba players. Although this can be good for competition and feeding off of one another, it is very likely that you will not be able to play in a wide variety of ensembles. This was a very important factor in picking where I went to grad school.

The number one most important thing in picking a school at any level of education is finding a teacher that you click with and who also has the ability to fix your weaknesses and motivate you to practice.

The bottom (and very depressing) line in this business is that there are too many good players out there and not enough jobs. Going to a conservatory or a university with a whizz-bang reputation will not get you a job. The only thing that will make your chances better is practicing more and more efficiently than everyone else.

Sorry I did not answer your question. You may want to consider the University of Minnesota. You would get to study with Steve Campbell who is a fantastic player and great guy. Also, the ensembles there are top-quality and the Minneapolis/St. Paul area is really nice, with the Minnesota orchestra in town. There are not many places to go to grad school where a top notch pro orchestra is even close by, let alone local.

In my experience is matters greatly where you go to graduate school.

If you are looking for improve your teaching credentials in public school, almost any local university is fine.

If you are looking to build a resume to get a job teaching in a university, you need to go to a "name" university. This is the one of the most political job tracks that you can pursue, and the teachers you study with and the perceived stature of the degree are important.

If you want to improve your playing, you need to find a teacher who has 1) a history of successful students, 2) the ability to have a rapport with you.

I would recommend two fine teachers in the North Texas area: Richard Murrow at TCU and Don Little at UNT. There are a number of others, just depends on your individual needs.

personal bias....Tucker Jolly at Akron U. not sure of his TA situation.

All,

IMHO the most important thing that you can do when choosing a graduate school is to choose the teacher - not the school. You are going to be working closely (at least you should be) with this person for the next 2/3/4/5 years (depending on how long you stay - how many degrees you do...) and you want to make sure that you can:

1.) learn from this person for a period of time.
2.) tolerate the positives/negatives of this person.
3.) grow as a musician and as a person with the help of this person.

Most of the time these 'people' are attached to great universities - sometimes they aren't. Don't simply choose the university and then let that dictate what you want to do. Sometimes the best teacher for "you" isn't going to be the same as the best teacher for whoever. This should be a highly PERSONALIZED decision - so, make it wisely.

Any questions, please feel free to email or PM.

All the best, and I hope this helps.

- Pat Stuckemeyer

I would recommend, among other research, looking at two factors:

1) How many folks from this program are working in the music business (e.g. "got jobs")?

2) Are people generally able to finish the degree at XYZ institution? Some schools have a very low graduation rate because of piano exams and other factors. If people leave because they get jobs, that's different.

Here are some other schools you should investigate:

Juilliard
Eastman
NEC
Michigan
Northwestern
Depaul
Cleveland Institute
University of Wisconsin
Boston University
University of Iowa
University of Georgia
Michigan State
Kansas University
North Texas State (now known as University of North Texas)

These are a few that are worth considering - there are others that I may have forgotten or just don't know anything about. You should be getting advice from your tuba teacher and you should also seek advice from other professional tuba players and tuba professors.

Good luck.

add:
Arizona State
Manhattan school of music

What are some thoughts on Mannes?

clagar777 wrote:What are some thoughts on Mannes?

Could've (for free), should've, would've, but they didn't have any Jazz or commercial programs in the 80's. Now I say go for it. Plus, you can't beat their current tuba teacher. (literally.)

FWIW, I keep kicking around the idea of getting a Masters (since I found out the hard way only having a B.M.E won't even get me an interview in most public school systems and I refuse to do the small podunk private school thing again) and they are high on my list of possibilities. But, to be perfectly honest, I may not have those kind of chops anymore and I probably can't afford a place anywhere near NYC that would fit a miniumum of 5 people (6 if my wife gets her way in another year )

I hate to contradict the advice of so many of these posts, but something to consider when choosing graduate schools is what kind of experiences that apply to the real world will you get at the school. Fancy degrees and famous teachers often gain their reputation for good reason, but there is a lot of good reasons took off the beaten path.

For a person dreaming about (and working towards) a gig as a solo or orchestral peformer, then the "conservatory" is probably right for you. All the schools mentioned earlier would fit this bill. Also, just moving to an area like NYC or chicago and studying with an accomplished teacher and performer and gigging as much as possible would seem logical.

For someone who wants to teach at the college level, you need to be more than just a performer. Most college tuba/euph teachers I know do a whole lot more than just play tuba. Graduate school, especially at the masters level, is a great place to get experience doing the "other stuff." I chose my Masters and Doctoral Degrees for the experience that I gained. By finding a school that I actually got to conduct a band and write marching band drill and teach music appreciation classes, I set myself up for gainful employment.

The best place to gain experience at the "other stuff" is a State School. I chose Boise State. Tons of other would work too.

Now, be clear, you still need to be prepared for a solid doctoral program, so don't choose the easy route. The days of getting a college gig without a Doctorate are gone.

I have just recently started looking into graduate schools, although i dont graduate for a few more years. But a couple of the things i would suggest you look into the following in order of importance:
1) Teacher - You can't learn from someone if you dont like them.
2) School Atmosphere - If you are going to go to school you might as well enjoy it, its not worth hating every day you are there.
3) What opportunities are there for you? - If you want to perform, is there a decent local Orchestra, or a great soloist (depending on your preference) nearby.
4) Price - although most people going to graduate school hope for a TA job, there are so many good players out there now that its not easy to get, so chances are you will be paying for school.
5) Lastly, the area - on top of a local orchestra, or places to perform, there are other things to consider, living expences, the town, and the people in the town.

I have been told by a couple people now that i need to travel to schools to find the best option for me. I would giving you the same advice. Seeing as this is a major decision, take your time and make it wisely and for all the right reasons.

As a newly minted MM (who decided to take my life in a completely different direction after graduating), I will wholeheartedly concur with Mr. Gorilla's assessment of things, but I do have a few things to add from my own recent experiences.

First, as bloke wisely pointed out, money does matter. In the music business, you simply can't afford to go $60,000 in debt for a graduate degree when employment prospects (both performing AND teaching) are so uncertain. If you can't score an assistantship or significant scholarship, I would give serious thought to the idea of pursuing grad school even if you are accepted as a tuition paying student. Whatever you do, don't let your ego govern decisions about money and school.

Second, don't get your heart set on only A list schools. Your chances of ending up on the favorable end of issue #1 at an A list school are pretty slim. Plus, there is a good chance that you won't be able to distinguish yourself from the crowd because your A list school will most likely have lots and lots of equally talented and ambitious players. As a grad student, you DON'T want to be a face in a crowd.

Third, the difference between Super Conservatory and Tiny State University really isn't as great as you might think---the practice rooms are all about the same size, and Tiny State is probably a lot more affordable. Furthermore, there is a good chance that Tiny State offers a LOT more opportunities to get hands on experience with a variety of areas than Super Conservatory. Despite what your inner music elitist may tell you, it never hurts to have the words jazz or marching band on your resume. Being able to shred your excerpts is great, but you are more likely to pay bills with drill cleaning and sectional running.

Fourth, the teacher is important, but the teacher isn't everything at the grad school level. If you've taken care of business and done what you are supposed to be doing during your undergrad career, you shouldn't need someone holding your hand. In my opinion, your time as a grad student should be spent focused on figuring out how to insert yourself into a very competitive and very small field---not simply learning the art of the tuba or euphonium. The teacher and the school are important parts of this, but...

Grad school (particularly at the masters level) is ultimately about YOU. Not WHO you studied with or WHERE you went to school. At this point in your life, YOU (not your teacher) need to figure out the answers to important questions about your future as someone who wants to make a living in the profession. It is a time for honesty and realism with yourself.

Remember, advice you receive on TubeNet is only worth what you paid for it.

Kyle

tuben wrote: It's time for a little brutal honestly kids... Music schools are in the business of staying in business. How many tuba students are enrolled in college right now (undergrad & grad) who are being told they could win a major audition? 1000? Let's say 500. 500 x 4 (that allows for 4 groups of 4 year graduates, so maximum age is 38 )= 2000. That is a LARGE job pool for 5-7 openings A YEAR.

So what are these players doing besides trying to win that job (which probably will not be full time)? Freelancing, playing in a quintet, teaching, subbing when lucky with the local 65 member orchestra etc. All things that do not warrant a large 6/4 tuba. Read back into the for sale posts, notice how many posts are for selling 6/4 tubas because, "I'm just not playing as much as I thought I would and it's not paying for itself so it has to go."

I'm curious - where do you get the number 1000 for students "who are being told they could win a major audition"?

And, if that number is correct...why do you think that the students concerned CAN'T win a major audition...with work?

If you are an undergrad performance major, and you didn't win the audition for the top chair in the top group at your own college...I think you should be intelligent enough to connect the dots. You're not a candidate for the NY Phil.

but, this has nothing to do with music schools staying in business. There are MANY students (even performance majors)
who will not end up pursuing a career as a performer...AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

College is where you discover what it is you want to do 24/7 and learn a little bit about how one goes about doing that. Every year, 1000's of engineering majors discover that they'd rather study philosophy - and every year 1000's of math majors take jobs that require no more math than what they knew in high school.

Students arrive at college with career goals they have chosen based on their lives as high school kids. Any student who has the SAME career goals when he graduates from college is either incredibly lucky - or incredibly stupid.

The point is: it's not a FAILURE (or evidence that someone has been lying) when an 18yo tuba performance major emerges 4 years later as a 22yo history of philosophy major and takes a job in the mailroom of an ad agency. Neither is it a failure if he emerges with a degree in tuba performance and takes the same job!

Mojo workin' wrote:Don't get another piece of paper that says that you can play. If you've got serious aspirations to teach at the college level someday, continue on your path. If not, move to Chicago or New York or somewhere else to get yourself around a worldclass player and teacher, and study with and listen to him/her. Good schools are too damned expensive these days to get a degree from that will not give you secure marketable skills. I wish someone had said this to me about 15 years ago.

Phil Taylor

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

If I could give anyone advice as to the wisdom of pursuing an increasing supply, decreasing demand career such as tuba playing/teaching, I would say to forget the idea and choose one of these jobs-
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag ... /index.htm

When you are forty, have student loan and credit card debt and are trying to find a solid path financially as you will have to, your choices will be so much more abundant and clear if you have not chosen the tuba performance route. The world becomes more and more concerned with the accumulation of material wealth everyday, less and less concerned with preserving tradition or fine arts, etc. Well funded arts organizations are on the decline and will cease to exist in many ways by the time a present college student will hit senior citizen status. This may sound bleak, but I have watched the trend begin in my 15 or so years out of college.

Watch how your local professional sports team is supported as opposed to your local orchestra or opera company in the next few years, or review how they have been in the past five years. I would be surprised if the arts organizations are not reporting less and less ticket sales every year, and the football or baseball team not reporting record profits and ticket sales.

I went to a theological seminary to earn a master's degree in tuba. Since the music school at the seminary was mostly voice teachers (with regards to performance), I could study with whomever I wanted. I studied with the late Everett Gilmore and it was worth it.

My work was teaching at a public high school near the University of North Texas and there were other grad students there, who were also coaching instrumentalists on a part-time basis. Sometimes, I brought my homework with me, when I'd know that I'd have an hour or two for preparation. The North Texas students were very envious of some of the coursework I took.

I do think that Joe (Bloke) is right on this. Don't let a bunch of anonymous people on a forum convince you what you have to do here.

Had I listened to those voices, I would have gone a different way and I wouldn't have had some of the fantastic experiences I've had in my life.

I am one of those '1000 of performance majors who have been told they can get jobs' truth is though, no one actually has told me that I will find a job. All I've heard even form my own instructor is how rough the life is. I began here at IC as a 4 1/2, which is the performance and education double major. I soon decided that teaching was not what I wanted to do, and I thought it wrong to just get the degree, so I'm now straight performance. Sure, my dream would be to become one of those big namers who make the big money playin in the big orchestra. I also know how unlikely that is. I realize now that I'll be happy doing anything that is related to music, and if I'm getting payed to play, hey even better.
I don't believe that many of the performance majors out there actually believe that they are going to get the big job when they graduate, most of us do realize how rarely that happens. Sure, we'll make it a point to practice our asses off and show up at the auditions, but I would hope that we're smart enough to have day jobs when the true prodigies and amazing players send their tapes in.