Titanium mouthpiece

[Ivan Giddings]

I wanted to thank everybody who has been so supportive of our new line of mouthpieces.

We recently did a bit of research and development, making a tuba mouthpiece out of titanium. And I thought you may enjoy knowing the results of our experiment.

Playing compared to our stainless steel mouthpiece of the same size (bayamo) SS= stainless steel, Ti = titanium

Dynamic control
SS plays from pp-fff controlled and comfortably
Ti plays from ppppp-fff controlled and comfortably

Lip slurs are identical, very easy to play long legato, and slured lines of music. Titanium can slur easier at extrem low volumes

Articulation (something that the SS does very well!)
SS better than any mouthpiece I've ever played
Ti A noticable level better than SS

Tone centering is easy on both

Low playing (CC and below)
SS & Ti are great

High playing (D above staff and up)
SS is more secure
Ti is a little less secure

Tone color
SS thick, rich, sonorous.
ti More upper overtones, not as thick as SS

Pitch is great on both

Ease of machining
SS is hard to machine
Ti is very difficult, very expensive, and can burn!!!

Overall cost to end user
SS $135 a good price for an outstanding product
Ti $500 a price most people cant afford.

As and end result to our research and development Ti although unique will probably be too expensive to the end user. I however will not be letting go of my Titanium Bayamo any time soon. Bob mentioned something about prying the Titanium bayamo out of my hand at my funeral service

Anyway this was interesting for us to do, and I thought tubeneters would like to know.

Ivan

[Chuck(G)]

Very interesting, Ivan!

Given that Ti is such a lightweight metal, have you tried a mouthpiece machined of an equally lightweight alloy, say aluminum or magnesium?

[imperialbari]

Or Chuck, what about two other lightweight metals, natrium and kalium?

Wouldn't these put your chops on fire?

Klaus

[GC]

Okay, titanium can burn, but not nearly so violently and flare-hot as magnesium. As for Natrium and Kalium (sodium and potassium), they have no structural strength and wouldn't react well with the player's skin, to say the least. I guess if you want the lightest metal, there's always Beryllium; it's super-light and strong, but it can poison you.

[Chuck(G)]

Okay, titanium can burn, but not nearly so violently and flare-hot as magnesium.

Yeah, just what I always wanted--a hunk of beryllium against my face!

Compared to titanium, magnesium machines like a dream. A little care and proper disposal of swarf is usually sufficient (that and a handy bucket of dry sand). Magnesium machining is a very mature industrial art.

If production quantity was desired, you could even injection-mold magnesium--something that you can't do with titanium.

[Art Hovey]

Can somebody comment about the corrosion resistance of titanium? Seems to me that's the important issue, and that's what make stainless steel attractive.

[Matt G]

What about tungsten carbide?

I just got a replacement wedding band made of the stuff because of its properties. I figure it would be even harder to amchine than Ti though...

[Chuck(G)]

What about tungsten carbide?

I just got a replacement wedding band made of the stuff because of its properties. I figure it would be even harder to amchine than Ti though...

How about amorphous silicon?

[imperialbari]

solid hydrogen heavywall Geib

How does that one compare to the famous Conn Chief in silver plated soapstone?

[TonyZ]

' anyone care to purchase my solid hydrogen heavywall Geib?

I played one of those in a bar gig...should've quit smoking, though...

[Ivan Giddings]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the comments, and I wanted to answer some of the questions posted.

The research and development we have done so far has been with:

Aluminum, heavy and light wieght
Brass, heavy, medium, and light weight
Stainless Steel, heavy medium and light weight
Titanium, medium weight

Aluminum is not good for mouthpieces, absorbes vibration
Brass is acceptable
Obviously stainless steel has been my favorite
Titanium, is great, but very expensive

Future materials for research and development
Tool steel, one that can be hardened extremely hard
Plastic, however it's not as resonate
Gold, if somebody wants to donate it
Silver, if somebody wants to donate it
Platnum, Donations welcome
lead was a thought, but for obvious reasons not a good thought


Currently magnesium is not on the list. It might work but it can get a little too interesting while machining if you know what I mean

There were other material mentioned in previous threads, but those were silly.

Hope this helps

Ivan

[kegmcnabb]

Hey Ivan,

Thanks

It is a rare treat to have a manufacturer of instruments so accessible and willing to share the ideas and philosophies of his product and research directly with members of the playing communitiy. I'm sure that all the TubeNetsters here agree.

Thanks again.

Craig
PS - As I live in Wisconsin I gotta ask - can you make one out of cheese
Craig@sonicabsurdities.com
www.sonicabsurdities.com

[Leland]

Aluminum is not good for mouthpieces, absorbes vibration

I've heard of aluminum mouthpieces. What didn't surprise me was learning that they were made by Jet-Tone. Ugh....

I had guessed that they would actually vibrate more, giving a brighter sound (after all, that seems to be Jet-Tone's mission statement). But, I'm probably wrong.

Would aluminum also deposit itself into the skin, too? Possibly contributing to Alzheimer's later on?

[Chuck(G)]

Would aluminum also deposit itself into the skin, too? Possibly contributing to Alzheimer's later on?

It's very difficult to absorb aluminum from skin contact alone. The reason is that almost immediately upon being cut or scratched, aluminum reacts quickly with the air to form a very hard skin of oxide.

The Alzheimer's connection with aluminum is very suspect. Consider that aluminum is one of the more abundant elements in the earth's crust and that we regularly ingest quite a bit of it in the form of dust.

Bare aluminum is quite reactive and will even combine with hot water to liberate hydrogen. Yet, because of the relatively non-reactive oxide layer that forms, it's a very durable material.

If the naturally formed oxide isn't sufficient, aluminum can be anodized to form a very tough protective coating.

[Ivan Giddings]

Good questions,

I'll try to keep this brief,

We have developed these mouthpieces after four years of prototypes. During this time we have had Professinals, teachers, Students, and customers throughout the United States give us feedback on our mouthpieces. Our total number of testers ranges between to 25-30 different people. After testing is complete we look for common threads of information, and go from there. We have about made about 50 prototypes with at least 10 modifications to each to create the current mouthpieces.

Our mouthpieces are a general conglomeration of ideas based on surveys, recording and computer analysis, Listening to pros, students, and teachers play these mouthpieces, in addition to our own in house players.

In our effort to produce the best we are still testing mouthpieces, materials, and new ideas. This is a never ending process of learning.

Ivan

[Rick Denney]

Can somebody comment about the corrosion resistance of titanium? Seems to me that's the important issue, and that's what make stainless steel attractive.

Titanium is highly reactive, and forms a very thin, nearly invisible oxide layer almost immediately. Once this oxide layer has formed (which happens without you having to do anything), the oxide protects the metal from further oxidation, and it becomes extremely stable. It's an excellent metal, therefore, for use in high-corrosion environments--even better than stainless steel and much better than aluminum.

In terms of mechanical properties, it is between aluminum and steel in strength and stiffness, with the same specific stiffness (i.e., stiffness per weight) as both aluminum and steel.

But it is quite difficult to machine, with a pronounced tendency to gall and to dull cutting tools. I understand that titanium sourced from Russia is a lot cheaper, so this might make an alternative source to allow a lower price.

Rick "always entertained by mouthpiece fashion" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Aluminum is not good for mouthpieces, absorbes vibration

This is ironic: In the bicycle world, aluminum has the reputation of not absorbing enough vibration.

But aluminum's specific stiffness is the same as steel, so an aluminum part that is massive enough to have the same strength as a steel part will have exactly the same stiffness (and about the same weight). If machined to the same shape, aluminum will have about one-third the stiffness and weight of steel. While this will change its resonant frequencies, it will not make it less elastic. Like all stiff metals, aluminum is highly elastic below its yield strength. If it weren't for its low fatigue limit, aluminum could be used for springs. Thus, the statement above seems to me a mis-characterization. I would suggest more accurate wording: Aluminum resonates at the wrong frequencies to make an effective mouthpiece.

Titanium is between aluminum and steel in its mechanical properties. Pound for pound, titanium has exactly the same stiffness as both aluminum and steel.

When I ring a mouthpiece, the resonance I hear is very high in frequency, so it seems to me its effect on tuba frequencies should be very subtle indeed. But subtleties keep the tuba world turning.

Rick "who thinks stainless mouthpieces would be exceptionally durable" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

I and my wife have our wedding rings made out of Titanium. As fas as that goes before my wife got us this set I destroyed 2 gold weeding rings while working or druming and shooting I just seemed to have the rings bent to hell and high water before i knew it. My Titanium however has held up like a champ.

Just my centavios worth.

How about nitinol:

Cool Nitinol Toy

Bend the living daylights out of it and just heat it up again to get back the original shape. I wish tuba bells were made of the stuff.