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does this symphony have a tuba part?

No, the only Brahms symphony with tuba is the 2nd.

I DID play Brahms 1st Symphony this summer and the bastardized (or, "improved") arrangement actually HAD a tuba part. I have also recently done bastardized arrangements of Beethoven's Egmont Overture with 3 trombones and tuba and another of von Suppe Light Calvary Overture with a tuba part.

All these guys must be spinning in their graves.

Roger

Roger Lewis wrote:I DID play Brahms 1st Symphony this summer and the bastardized (or, "improved") arrangement actually HAD a tuba part. I have also recently done bastardized arrangements of Beethoven's Egmont Overture with 3 trombones and tuba and another of von Suppe Light Calvary Overture with a tuba part.

Who had made the "improvements"?

I understand Mahler added a tuba part to Beethoven 9 and Schumann symphonies - but have never seen the parts.

Jonathan "who has always wondered why Brahms did not include a tuba in his symphonies other than 2nd"

Neptune wrote:

Roger Lewis wrote:I DID play Brahms 1st Symphony this summer and the bastardized (or, "improved") arrangement actually HAD a tuba part. I have also recently done bastardized arrangements of Beethoven's Egmont Overture with 3 trombones and tuba and another of von Suppe Light Calvary Overture with a tuba part.

Who had made the "improvements"?

I understand many such 'arrangements' were made in Germany in the early 1900's, merely to circumvent existing copyright laws. Just add tuba and accordion, and Bob's yer uncle!

I DID play Brahms 1st Symphony this summer and the bastardized (or, "improved") arrangement actually HAD a tuba part. I have also recently done bastardized arrangements of Beethoven's Egmont Overture with 3 trombones and tuba and another of von Suppe Light Calvary Overture with a tuba part.

There is a publishing group in the US called "Music Masters" that takes standard repertoire, makes the string parts easier and adds unused instruments and publishes them for High School and Community Orchestras to varying degrees of expertise. While their Beethoven and Brahms may include tuba parts, it just doesn't work, however, there is a really nice adaptation of Pictures that is quite good, and quite expensive. It follows the Ravel, but includes a Euphonium for Bydlo and a Tenor Sax substitute in the "Old Castle". While I haven't used them, a couple of orchestras I have heard have done some of these. Not great, but if played well you get the gist of the music and it keeps those who feel they deserve to play the repertoire happy while not butchering the original. You know what I say:

"Like Fat Chicks and Spandex, Performance is a Privilege, not a Right".

Chuck

Neptune wrote:I understand Mahler added a tuba part to Beethoven 9 and Schumann symphonies - but have never seen the parts.

I am not familiar with Mahler's version of Beethoven 9, but I know that Mahler did more than simply adding a tuba part to the Schumann symphonies; he reorchestrated them almost from scratch. In my view Mahler's orchestrations sound much better than Schumann's own, which leave much to be desired.

Chuck Jackson wrote: It follows the Ravel, but includes a Euphonium for Bydlo

What? Sacrilege! It's in the dang tuba part!

Uncle "performing Bydlo six times this week, and on the uber-macho F tuba" Beer

Roger Lewis wrote:I DID play Brahms 1st Symphony this summer and the bastardized (or, "improved") arrangement actually HAD a tuba part. I have also recently done bastardized arrangements of Beethoven's Egmont Overture with 3 trombones and tuba and another of von Suppe Light Calvary Overture with a tuba part.

All these guys must be spinning in their graves.

Roger

There was this old, old teacher I had for undergraduate school and we used to laugh behind his back when he'd talk about recording a Beethoven (or pick any composer) symphony with a famous tuba player.

One day, he showed up with a bunch of pictures and... SHAZAM... he had pictures of famous conductors of the day in front of reduced size orchestra playing into a megaphone. A tuba was included in almost every picture. Can't even remember the teacher's name now but we quit laughing.

In the early days of recording, the mics couldn't pick up the string bass in an orchestra very well so they added a tuba. Quite a few 78 rpm recordings will have a tuba added to the basses. ERGO, there were a lot of "arrangments" made to include tuba. Maybe that's where your parts came from.

Just a bit of fnugg I picked up along the way.

The Mahler - Beethoven 9 sucks as far as the tuba part goes. If memory serves me right, the tuba plays about 14 bars out of the whole piece.

My main orchestra yesterday played an all Vaughan Williams choral concert which was a wonderful experience. Two of the pieces, Towards the Unknown Region and Serenade to Music already had tuba part, but not the main work in the program, Pilgrim's Journey which I believe is an orchestral arrangement of one of his organ works (?). Without prompting from me, the conductor who is an excellent musician and composer himself said "I think it would sound better with tuba included". The next rehearsal he brought along part for me which I played in the concert. I thought he had very skillfully written with the tuba sometimes complimenting the trombones and sometimes the basses. The conductor who really likes the sound of the tuba, said to me after the concert "I thought that tuba part worked rather well - I may do that again in future for pieces where there is no tuba if I think it will work - after all Mahler did!"

We have Beethoven 9 programmed for 2009, so I may well get a part to play. Now it is an interesting subject if such 'additions' to music of deceased composers is acceptable. It all depends on if you view the music as historical documents which must be followed to the letter, or living working documents. I do not believe composers such as Beethoven would 'turn in his grave' at a tuba being added - in fact he would no doubt have included a tuba if it had been invented at the time.

Incidentally the Pilgrim's Journey performance was recorded - I think its first ever recording with orchestra, so hearing a tuba may confuse a few people. It is an incredible piece - the 5th movement, Vanity Fair sounds like Vaughan Williams meets Stravinsky with lovely snarling brass - great fun!

Neptune wrote:in fact he would no doubt have included a tuba if it had been invented at the time.

I have always thought this as well. I enjoy Beethoven very much, and lament the possibilities...
died in 1827, tuba invented in 1835.....almost..........

Detroit did the Beethoven 9/Mahler chart on TV a few years ago. There was a lot more than 14 bars...that sounds like Dvorak 9 is being thought of.

rascaljim wrote:The Mahler - Beethoven 9 sucks as far as the tuba part goes. If memory serves me right, the tuba plays about 14 bars out of the whole piece.

There may be more than one iteration of a rendered tuba part for Brahms 1, but I am certain Thor Johnson did one for the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra. It took some of the contrabassoon part and doubled low horns and bass trombone in others, particularly to fortify those marvelous chorales. Not aware of him doing one for Brahms 4, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least, given the structure and content of the last movement in particular. I think he came up with tuba parts for Vaughan Williams 3 and 5 as well. All unpublished and very, very "bootleg" in nature, but quite tasty to play and hear. Not sure if they were recorded - I kind of doubt it.

I recall Sam Green telling me about Brahms 1 during a break in one of our lessons, and him getting into a debate with Dave Borsvold about having played VW3. At the time I wondered how much of what he said was true and how much was embellishment, but to this day I get corroborations on quite a bit.

Dave Borsvold....what's he doing these days? It's been 25 years since I've seen or heard from him...he used his Alex to play dixie...what a sound! He alternated with Dick Jacoby in a couple of bands. Wow...flashbacks!