Question to 20J (purchase advice)

[Ulli]

I have the opportunity, to buy a Conn 20J.
It's a rather rare and unknown tuba here in Germany.
I'm looking for some purchase advices, especially about the valves and their possible problems and how to test and find out possible mistakes.
To what pitch- reference is the 20J build? A- 440 Hz?
Regards
Ulli

[The Big Ben]

The 20J is a fairly common tuba here. They are used in concert band situations and in an American music form called Dixieland where they create kind of a walking, thumping bass bottom. They have a pretty big sound and are hard to play softly. Luckily, Dixieland can be a loud sort of music.

They are tuned to A=440.

They are a strong horn and built to take a lot of abuse. My tuba teacher has one which has been rebuilt and is beautiful but many 20Js have seen years of abuse and have held up well.

Perhaps someone else here can comment on the valves and things to look for.

[Rick Denney]

I have the opportunity, to buy a Conn 20J.
It's a rather rare and unknown tuba here in Germany.
I'm looking for some purchase advices, especially about the valves and their possible problems and how to test and find out possible mistakes.
To what pitch- reference is the 20J build? A- 440 Hz?
Regards
Ulli

Ulli,

Every 20J I've played is built to A-440, as long as you use the single tuning bit between the mouthpiece and the mouthpipe. These tuning bits are generally available even if the instrument doesn't come with one. Without the tuning bit, the instrument is uncomfortable to hold and it will tend sharp.

20J's have some general intonation tendencies, including a very flat third partial. You'll probably need to play the F at the bottom of the staff using 1-3 rather than open. There are other issues, too, that you'll have to figure out as you go.

You can do a "pop test" on the valves to determine their wear state. After oiling properly, vigorously pull a tuning slide out without pressing the valve, and you should hear a distinct pop as the slide exits the instrument. Then, push the slide back in, again without touching the valve, and you should hear the pressure dissipate around the valve. If that pressure takes several seconds to dissipate or longer, the valves are probably good enough.

The 20J is a big tuba with a big sound. The most frequent complaint I hear about it (and this matches my experience with my own 20J) is that it cannot play softly. Most people who buy them, though, aren't buying them for that kind of subtlety. They are very popular in dixieland jazz and other places where a sousaphone could also be considered.

I think of a 20J as a lap sousaphone, and a good one. They are a lot of fun to play as long as you have the proper expectations.

Rick "thinking we ought to buy some and export them" Denney

[Chuck Jackson]

Rick "thinking we ought to buy some and export them" Denney

Rick, the Germans just went through unification, let's give them a break, we don't need any more enemies. Let's just send them all to France.

Chuck

[Tubanese]

I played some 20J before and I could not play in tune. That instrument is hard to play and their intonation is not consistant. If I am looking for a big Bb Tuba/sound, I think the Meinl Weston "Fafner" is the choice. It can play better and it has better intonation IMO
However, 20J does have the big full BAT sound. Therefore I agree to what Rick said about this horn. It's fun to play, but...

Good luck!

[The Big Ben]

I played some 20J before and I could not play in tune. That instrument is hard to play and their intonation is not consistant. If I am looking for a big Bb Tuba/sound, I think the Meinl Weston "Fafner" is the choice. It can play better and it has better intonation IMO

Fafner = USD10K
20J = USD.5-1K

Rick's point about the tuning bit is well taken. Problems with intonation can be caused by physical condition and there are 20Js that are beaters. One wouldn't use a 20J in the place of a Fafner but, for the music its' good for, a 20J in good shape works. Over there in Germany, I would think people would enjoy hearing the 20J sound in a polka/dance band. The front facing recording bell would be fun for the crowd because the booming bass would be coming right out at them. Such music demands close but not perfect intonation. The novelty of "der American horn" would be fun also.

Jeff "Lovin' the American Sound" Benedict

[Ulli]

Thank you for all advices.
I' ll take the 20J instead an upright string bass for a Big Band, playing American music from the 20ties to 50ties years instead an upright string bass or e- bass.
(Glenn Miller, Sam Nestico, Duke Ellington et al.)

-Ulli

[GC]

Umm . . . for playing big band, I'd take a string bass or bass guitar any day over a tuba. It's more appropriate to the sound, and walking basses sound better with strings than on any tuba.

Even so, I'm a 2X-J lover. Regarding playing them in tune, a huge part of the problem most of them have is dents in valve tubing and leadpipes that throw them out of tune. Get the dents out and make sure that there are no leaks, and they aren't much worse than your average BBb tuba (except for having to play the open F with 1-3 or 4).

[Rick Denney]

Thank you for all advices.
I' ll take the 20J instead an upright string bass for a Big Band, playing American music from the 20ties to 50ties years instead an upright string bass or e- bass.
(Glenn Miller, Sam Nestico, Duke Ellington et al.)

-Ulli

Dixieland--yes, absolutely take the 20J. Glenn Miller, probably not. Take both.

Rick "not a fan of electric bass for swing band, though" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I played some 20J before and I could not play in tune. That instrument is hard to play and their intonation is not consistant. If I am looking for a big Bb Tuba/sound, I think the Meinl Weston "Fafner" is the choice. It can play better and it has better intonation IMO
However, 20J does have the big full BAT sound. Therefore I agree to what Rick said about this horn. It's fun to play, but...

Good luck!

I would agree. But the Fafner will not have that fluffy sound that the 20J has, and it won't have that forward bell.

And, of course, it's about 8 times more expensive.

Rick "thinking there are a lot of intermediate choices" Denney

[andrew the tuba player]

Here's my 2 cents. I've got a 20J from our bands storage room. It's been up there for who knows how long. But, I have to say so far over my Miarfone 186 5uc even, it has been my all time favorite for...everything. Church, School, Messin' around whatever i want, It's usually what i go for first. It has great intonation (once again the best of all my horns) and it has a nice deep sound that can rattle windows without any volume at all. As far as the tuning bit goes, I never use one. Instead my slides are all pulled out a little and it's ALWAYS in tune. I've have only had to tune it once in 2 years and that was because the slide was on the floor beside it when i found it. I will say it is strong. One night i accedently tripped and did a "bell slam" into a cendar block wall. I was expecting it to be bent...but nothing at all was wrong. It's not the prettyest in the world...But, for playability and fun (in my opinion so far) it's the best. Just make sure and have a good deep mouthpiece. I usea Loud LM7. When I use anything smaller everything but the fundamental octive is gone. I haven't had any problems at all. The only thing wrong is the solder joint holding the lead pipe has been hit a few to many times and it's held on by tape and the bracket. but, it still plays perfect and in tune....but enough of my blabbing. I give the 20J an A++

[iiipopes]

The only problems with the 2XJ series can be summed up as follows:

1) Very few people remember to use a bit between the mouthpiece and receiver, causing all sorts of ergonomic woes, and

2) They are like "the little girl with the little curl" as there is no manufacturing consistency. You have great ones, mediocre ones, and the occasional item that needs to be tossed back into the foundry crucible to make something else.

When done properly, they are an indispensible item to any large concert/symphonic band. Editorial: I prefer large concert bands to have a section of mixed instrumentation rather than a "uniform" issue of tubas, so that the various strengths and quirks of the various instruments and players even each other out, and better to blend when the parts divisi.

[WakinAZ]

You can play walking bass on a tuba and make it sound like (or as good as) a string bass, especially if you play string bass and understand why it sounds like it does. That being said, it can be an exhausting endurance event if you are supporting a large ensemble, unless you are amplified with a microphone maybe.

Eric "mediocre bass doubler in high school" L.