"teacher approved"

scottw · Post by **scottw** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:00 pm

does anyone else in the education business get p.o.'ed by this new advertising claim on e-bay and the like? they are hyping a piece-o-crap horn and attempting [successfully?] to gull parents into buying said p-o-c in the belief that it's "approved" by the teacher. i fought most of the last 20 years with parents who were convinced they had just bought an honest to goodness musical instrument for johnny and susie when what they had stuck the poor kids with was that p-o-c that no good repairman would even touch.

Rommel72 · Post by **Rommel72** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:52 pm

You are not the only who has dealt with this....we have dealt with this where I teach as well. We also have the privlige(NOT!) of dealing with parents who want to buy those high quality(NOT!) instruments that Wally World sells.

ThomasP · Post by **ThomasP** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:11 pm

I will agree that these instruments aren't the greatest instruments on earth, but what if there was a future louis armstrong, or some other great musician that would not be able to play without the help of these cheap horns. Making music more affordable and more approachable to the masses will create a higher level of talent. Yes these horns might not be able to be repaired, but I never needed for my old trumpet to be repaired in the two years I played it. A kid could want to play trumpet or some other instrument that's not provided by the band so bad, but his family just simply might not be able to afford it. That kid could be Phil Smith's replacement, I think its worth the chance. The rewards are higher than the risk. If the kid wasn't ever going to suceed in music then the child would never take care of the instrument and the problems of the cheaper horn will show itself. BUT if I were in your shoes, I would try to get the parents to buy a higher quality instrument if they could afford one, but there is no sense in denying a child music simply because they can't afford it.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:00 pm

ThomasP wrote:I will agree that these instruments aren't the greatest instruments on earth, but what if there was a future louis armstrong, or some other great musician that would not be able to play without the help of these cheap horns. .... there is no sense in denying a child music simply because they can't afford it.

AMEN!!

scottw · Post by **scottw** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:04 pm

"but I never needed for my old trumpet to be repaired in the two years I played it."

exactly my point! your old trumpet was of at least moderate quality to begin with, wasn't it? and, it was repairable if something did break, right? but, as wade so eloquently says, these kids have exactly NO chance of making music on these P-O-C's---they WILL break [and sooner than later!]
and the kid will try to make music and of course will fail miserably-------and through no fault of his own! i have had kids bring these things to school still in the box, only to find them unplayable from the start. please don't try to make the case that these are "better than nothing"----once the kid fails, he will not be back in class----and he will fail using these things!

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:28 pm

the elephant wrote:
Despite what TubaTinker wrote, these things are FAR worse than anything made by Yamaha that ever made it over to the States in the 1970's. Yes, Yamaha was pretty bad at first. But these Chinese things are inexcusably so..... You get EXACTLY what you pay for. Wade

You guys have missed my point. I don't advocate running out and buying the Wal-Mart/Costco/Sam's stuff by any means. I'm simply stating that this stuff is here to stay and the quality will improve as time goes on. My main point is that this invasion of cheap off-shore goods should serve as a warning shot to the so-called 'quality' manufacturers who are buying their components from the same guys as we are slamming... and selling their 'name brands' for prices far greater than what they are worth! Who the heck knows where Conn, King, and other great names are coming from! The 'name brands' had better get their act together and produce instruments of acceptable quality for reasonable prices or these so called POC instruments are going to pass them by.

ThomasP · Post by **ThomasP** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:32 pm

I am by no means wanting to push the sale of these instruments. I am not a band director, nor am I aspiring to be one, but my point is this, if there are no other choices other than a wal-mart trumpet, I see no problem in them buying it. You will never be able to convince me that they are better than nothing at all, but I have been convinced for sometime now, that they are not the best bang for your buck. I don't want these horns to become the first choice of parents, but merely the last resort for parents. ScottW, based on your opinion you would rather the kid not participate in music in the first place rather than taking a chance on a POC, as they have been termed now. Again, if the ONLY choice is a "POC", then I say why not the worst thing that could happen is what has already been mentioned, but the best thing that could happen far outweighs the negative, in my opinion.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:58 pm

It is possible to buy good used instruments for less than the cost of these new discount store instruments, so it really shouldn't be a case of these or nothing. That's the thing that has helped Taylor music's business, taking trade ins of old instruments, doing an econo overhaul, and then marketing them to band directors. I think that is a great service.

Unfortunately though, most parents wouldn't know what a good used horn would be, and most kids that I know would rather have a nice new shiny First Act than an old Olds with a few dents and missing half its lacquer.

scottw · Post by **scottw** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:12 pm

ThomasP wrote:I am buy no means wanting to push the sale of these instruments. I am not a band director, nor am I aspiring to be one, but my point is this, if there are no other choices other than a wal-mart trumpet, I see no problem in them buying it. You will never be able to convince me that they are better than nothing at all, but I have been convinced for sometime now, that they are not the best bang for your buck. I don't want these horns to become the first choice of parents, but merely the last resort for parents. ScottW, based on your opinion you would rather the kid not participate in music in the first place rather than taking a chance on a POC, as they have been termed now. Again, if the ONLY choice is a "POC", then I say why not the worst thing that could happen is what has already been mentioned, but the best thing that could happen far outweighs the negative, in my opinion.

thomas--were you a band director, you would not even be making your argument! as a non-director, you can not even begin to imagine the sorry situation these horns create.what you do not see is that these POC's are never the ONLY choice: there are plenty of good-quality-but-kinda-beat used horns available to any parent who takes the initiative to look for them. these horns can serve a child well until such a time as he/she can get a better one---kind of the ultimate recycling then takes place! unlike the POC's, which can't be fixed, a good horn can nearly always be fixed up and put in GPC.

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:06 am

I think one of the problems with the Wally World instruments is the perception by many buyers (and their kids) that shiny new is better. I'm sure the parents who played an instrument for several years knows better but those who did not play or were poor players doesn't.

Heck, I even have had this conversation several times with relatives or friends of mine who come to concerts and can't understand why you don't get a shiny new instrument instead of that don't look too good lost most of its laquer Rudy.

Not being in the music ed business I can imagine its pretty hard for band directors to convince beginning band player parents that in these tough economic times that the third the cost shiny Wally World special that little Johnny wants real bad (and he doesn't want any second hand dented lost its lacquer horn) is really a better idea.

MJI

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:56 pm

Wade, can you please guide me to those stores where I can receive a kickback. I've been missing out on the dough for years. Help!

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:03 pm

the elephant wrote: Our store has a little party each Wednesday evening for "good customers" (cooperative directors) with free liquor for all. This is normal here. It has been for fifty years or longer.
Wade

Wow! And to think that all I get is $250 for a used Bach trumpet that I buy for $50 and have to spend several hours working on before I can sell.

I STILL say there is absolutely no way a student level name-brand trumpet should cost $1,000. Parents are getting robbed! So.... the kid just has to have a shiney new trumpet. The little moron drops it the first day at band and puts a real nasty ding in the bell crook. He continues to play it for a year and then decides he would rather play football instead. Either that or the band director won't let him play in jazz band unless he dedicates his life to marching band. I say go ahead and buy the trash at Wal-Mart. After all.... your kid is only going to play it for a year or so anyway. At the end of a year that $1,000 Bach with the nasty dent in the bell crook, stuck mouthpiece, twisted slide, and other assorted damage is only going to bring $50 anyway.... if you're lucky you're lucky enough to find someone like me who will fix it and sell it for $250.

Parents are really stupid in that respect. I guess they are being led around by the band directors and music stores. They haven't figured out the difference between the $150 pawn shop horn and the new one at the music store for $1,000. Hmmm... let's see... a brand new brite and shiney one for $1,000 or the exact same thing with a few scratches and someone's name on the case for $150. Then, they expect some idiot to give them $800 for little Johnny's horn in a year because he is tired of it!

Wade, don't misinterpret what I'm saying because I think we are both saying the same thing... only in different ways with different points of view. Personally, I would much rather sell a kid a used horn than send him to Wal-Mart for the POC one.

Used horns is what I do. The only REAL local music store in my area sends folks who want to sell (or buy) used instruments to me.

You know.... there is one question that lingers in my mind though..... where do all those horns go when they die?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:31 pm

You know.... there is one question that lingers in my mind though..... where do all those horns go when they die?

They're murdered at the hands of hack "repair techs".

Right now, I'm muttering at the idiot who sawed a bottom bow in half to get at the dents. At least he just filled the dents in the top bow with a couple pounds of solder...

Wonder if I could fabricate a sleeve to fit the bottom bow and silver-solder it together?

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:41 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:
You know.... there is one question that lingers in my mind though..... where do all those horns go when they die?
They're murdered at the hands of hack "repair techs".

Right now, I'm muttering at the idiot who sawed a bottom bow in half to get at the dents. At least he just filled the dents in the top bow with a couple pounds of solder...

Wonder if I could fabricate a sleeve to fit the bottom bow and silver-solder it together?

I saw a school corporation tech do this once to a baritone. The horn was junk already and he just took an easy way out to get it patched up and back into service.

I would think that you could soft solder a patch over the seam in a way that it would look ok. Silver-soldering and refinishing that large an area would be a real pain. Of course... how much pain you choose to endure depends strickly on how much you stand to gain!

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:16 pm

TubaTinker wrote:I saw a school corporation tech do this once to a baritone. The horn was junk already and he just took an easy way out to get it patched up and back into service.

This is a Miraphone 184--sigh.

I'm gonna start marketing metallic brass- and silver-colored Bondo. At least that way, the hacks won't do that much harm...

A related question, though. For you guys bidding on the annual summer school repair work, do you bid on a fixed-price per item basis or as a sum-of-individual-items basis?

A BD friend told me about this year's repair bidding. One of the local shops that has gotten the repair work for years came in, spent 15 minutes looking and said "75 bucks per instrument". The competing shop sent a tech who spent 4 hours going through the instruments, making a list of work to be done and submitted a higher bid.

The second guy got the business.

randy westmoreland · Post by **randy westmoreland** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:28 pm

the elephant wrote:lisa,

That director is receiving payments for each instrument sale credited to his/her program. Does it make more sense now?

Insisting on a 5C is just padding the purchase price since ALL trumpets and cornets come with a perfectly good 7C (or equivilant) in the case. A 5C is not the best choice for a beginner. But is is close enough to not cause damage. And, hey! It drives up the price!

I bet the store asks each parent where their child goes to school. Why are they interested in that? GOT TO SEND THAT KICKBACK TO THE RIGHT DIRECTOR!
Your band director is either a scummy, shady businessman or a weak educator (based on the ridiculous 5C information you gave in you post).

And I would be happy to confront them face-to-face and say this.

Our store does the same darn thing with mouthpieces for certain band directors, giving a small "donation" to the director (or "discounts" if the director is a stupid person) in exchange for the added business.

And I totally agree with you - What IS wrong with a decent used instrument if it works properly? (Wal*Mart instruments are not covered by my definition of "decent" of course.)

Wade

Wade your comments are 100% idiotic, if your store does business this way they will not be in business long. By the way, the cost of a 5C is exactly the same as a 7C or 3C.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:09 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:I saw a school corporation tech do this once to a baritone. The horn was junk already and he just took an easy way out to get it patched up and back into service.
This is a Miraphone 184--sigh.

..... The competing shop sent a tech who spent 4 hours going through the instruments, making a list of work to be done and submitted a higher bid.

The second guy got the business.

I should think a bottom bow for a 184 wouldn't be too difficult to find. Maybe someone on the board has one or knows of a source for Mirafone parts.

I don't compete for high school band business so I don't go through the bidding process. The local school system is sewed up by one music retailer and a captive repair shop. I do some business with high schools in other counties but most of my customers are individuals who won't put up with the 'drop it off and come back in four weeks' speil they receive from the one major retailer/repairer for simple stuff like stuck mouthpieces and slides and individuals wanting to sell horns because little Johnny has lost interest in band.

randy westmoreland · Post by **randy westmoreland** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:02 am

Wade

My apologies for my temper. I am certain; however, that what you are describing is not the norm. I call on over 70 music educators a week. My store calls on over 800 every week. If there were dishonest business practices going on here, we would here about it and raise a big stink; band directors talk so much there are no secrets. You came off making two entire professions as being crooks. This is offensive, this is not common practice, expect strong reactions to your charges! I would speculate that there are many music educators who participate in this forum and they would also be offended by broad condemnations.

Lisa's post did not mention anything about buying an extra trumpet mouthpiece, this may be the case, but she did not specify. All retailers I know of, when starting a beginning program, will substitute the desired mouthpiece for the stock mouthpiece, at no additional charge (or profit).

Perhaps I am naive or perhaps I am blind, but I associate myself with great people, an build my business through service, support, and integrity.

Once again, I apologize for my attack on your intelligence, I am sure it was unfounded.

Randy

scottw · Post by **scottw** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:24 am

the direction this post has taken ---graft, pure and simple---is quite disturbing. one, i taught for 32 years and never took anything from retailers, nor would i have dealt with them had they offered.two, though, i have little doubt that this is a practice that, while not necessarily common, does in fact go on in more districts than i want to imagine. i hear stories of stuff wade relates and they are too numerous for them to all be rumors. i also see and hear of things that far surpass plain stupidity on the part of directors. selling reeds, books, supplies and the like to kids while getting them from suppliers free or near cost has happened in my district in the past by a few nutcases. i see directors specify non-stock mouthpieces that absolutely raise the cost of the rentals and scratch my head wondering why they would do that. i like to think, though, that there are far more "clean" directors and retailers than there are these idiots.
while we are on this topic, let me ask this: do any directors attend year-end or start-of-year banquets sponsored by the retailer? i know i have attended many over the years, and, in fact, look forward to them as a means to meet and talk with other directors while enjoying a good meal and a couple drinks for free [we are cheapskates at heart, aren't we?!]. questionis: is this wrong? are we now beholden to the retailer/host? is there an appearance problem? is the retailer just thanking us--in a small way-- for dealing with them, or is he buying our soul? discuss among yourselves!

randy westmoreland · Post by **randy westmoreland** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:31 pm

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