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I am going to start a new pitch thread because of what happened at my church orchestra rehearsal last night. I got into a brief but explosive exchange with my principal flautist over her sharp third on the ending of a piece. I asked to lower the pitch so it would fit into the chord. She responded by telling me that she had a tuner on the stand that said she was right on the money. I asked her to please ignore the tuner and fit into the chord as tuners were not issued to the audience but ears were. Long story short, she was so upset with her abusive conductor that she may not show up for the performance tonight. O well no third is better than a sharp third. My point is, "All pitch is relative."

Are there any other pitch stories folks would like to share?

Yes, pitch is relative.

For me, it is playing on a gig with guitar players who tune to themselves, but may be between standardized norms for a given pitch.

I sat in on a three piece gig one evening, (guitar, bass, drums) where the guitar player was about 1/4 step flat, though in tune instrument wise.

Since none of my basses have frets, I could adjust.

The same basic incident happened again, though I was playing saxes this time. The adjustment was not as easy. The guitar player commented that he thought I could tune better, and I replied that I could if here were on pitch. He didn't understand the concept of standardized pitch (A=440), and was not convinced that there was anything wrong.

I have also played with string players in an orchestra setting where one of them would use a tuner and have it remain clamped to their bass bridge. As mentioned in another recent post, strings can not be depended on to remain in tune due to temperature and humidity. Constant listening and adjusting is needed.

Tom Mason

tbn.al wrote:Are there any other pitch stories folks would like to share?

It always seems to be flute and oboe players. In my experience, they seem to always decorate their stands with the effluvia of music technology.

Personally, I don't know how they manage it. If I keep so much as a pencil on my stand, the likely result is music spread all over the floor. But that's another story.

Now, let me suggest the following, not gently enough probably to avoid misunderstanding: Players who don't respect the musical authority of the conductor will cause problems. But conductors sometimes demand that respect rather than earning it. When a player challenges a conductor, the conductor's natural response is anger, but this is almost always more harmful than helpful. You complained that she was sharp. She responded that she had (in her thinking) gone the extra mile to ensure that she wasn't. She has already demonstrated that her ears have limitations, but you claimed her strategy wasn't good enough, leaving her with no options. The "audience doesn't have tuners" was, frankly, sarcastic. By that time, the technical point you were trying to make was falling on those deaf ears.

You might instead have said, "The tuner is excellent for establishing basic pitch, but in this case, this note in this part of the chord should actually be flat with respect to what the tuner says. Try it 6 cents flat (or whatever--I don't remember) and see what you think about it." Then praise the result, "That sounds so much better--thank you." If she heard the difference, you will have led her to prove to herself that her ears are better than the tuner. If she didn't hear the difference, then she's up against a basic limitation and you have to either decide she shouldn't be in the group or that you will have to work on it positively and continually.

Rick "who has learned all this the hard way" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: You might instead have said, "The tuner is excellent for establishing basic pitch, but in this case, this note in this part of the chord should actually be flat with respect to what the tuner says. Try it 6 cents flat (or whatever--I don't remember) and see what you think about it." Then praise the result, "That sounds so much better--thank you." If she heard the difference, you will have led her to prove to herself that her ears are better than the tuner.

So much better than to say "I'm the boss, do it my way" but, in fact, he *did* say "I'm the boss, do it my way" but in a way that the job got done. I find myself doing this constantly while teaching 14 and 15 year olds literature and history for the last 27 years.

Musically, ya gotta learn to trust your ears. Tunewise and rhythmwise, the feeling of the group is what matters most.

She needs to swallow her pride, be a team player as musicians need to in tuning with a group and realize in a justly tuned major chord, one must lower one's third, raise one's fifth, and play octaves strictly in tune.If a minor chord, raise one's third slightly.

Thanks, Gene Pokorny masterclass.

I regularly play with brass players whose ears are trained....to feel comfortable with sonorities that have beats rattling the light fixtures. If you take away their beats, it literally does not sound correct to them; there is something missing. Of course it is the beats that are missing, but to tell them something is incorrect when they have played that way their entire lives (many decades, at the age I'm talking about) will get you, at best, weird looks and rolling eyes, and at worst, a verbal confrontation.

I've learned that the presence of a tuner on the stand is like a big flashing sign saying "tin ear here." I've not made much progress with anyone trying to get the concept across. But I still remain convinced that a fairly short course in beatless intonation can work wonders, but it's a really hard row to hoe especially if the person you are trying to educate has a degree in some kind of music. Music education often does not expose people to correct intonation, and I've even heard pros who do not have the basic concepts of playing major and minor chords in tune. I remember one *conductor* who told someone during a rehearsal that the 3rd in a major chord should be *raised* above what the tuner says, in order to be in tune, and the third in a minor chord *lowered.* What do you do then?
MA

The third of a major chord should be lowered until beats disappear, assuming you have a perfect fifth at your disposal to fit into.

The third of a minor chord should be raised until beats disappear, once again assuming you have a perfect fifth at your disposal to fit into.

But when the *conductor* is giving erroneous information, causing an entire band of amateurs to go the wrong way, what do you do? Do you talk to him afterwards and say "Um, you must have gotten confused when you were telling people to raise the third of a major chord; you meant lower it, right?"

Reminds me of the argument I got into with someone at work who told me very convincingly that an English horn was like a trumpet but bigger. No point even engaging sometimes, but when it's not some dufus at work but some dufus holding a baton.....you have to give up on being right and concentrate on being sane.

MA

MaryAnn wrote:I remember one *conductor* who told someone during a rehearsal that the 3rd in a major chord should be *raised* above what the tuner says, in order to be in tune, and the third in a minor chord *lowered.* What do you do then?
MA

Bring a "Conductor Tuner" to the next rehearsal, and then tell them, "Sorry, but your musicianship is reading 180° flat!!"

One teacher of mine told me to "do what the other person(people) do, then you CAN'T be wrong." This could help that person, or even you.

Chances are, you're correct, but it might not be a battle worth fighting.

It's not brain surgery, just music.

Rick's comments on being diplomatic when correcting people is good advice in all fields. For music conducting, I would go even further: I would teach.

I have had some conductors of amateur music groups lead group intonation exercises. They have also taught about raising or lowering notes to tune them well and get rid of beats. If the flutist in the original poster's tale had had such group intonation lessons, the conductor's admonition to lower that third would have been just a reminder.

Of course, I have played in ensembles where it would have been a big improvement if only everyone played in equal temperament, centering the tuner needle on each note!

I think there's another issue here, and MA mentioned it: what people's ears are used to. Here's my two pitch stories to illustrate the point:

Some years ago the Boston Globe's music critic reported on a new Baroque-style pipe organ by Fisk that was installed in King's Chapel in Boston. Although he liked the instrument and the music, he tartly commented at the end of the review that "the organ should be given a through tuning before it is used for public performance again." A week later, the embarrassed critic wrote describing the education he had just received about mean-tone tuning versus equal temperament tuning. It seems the critic was entirely unused to hearing pure thirds!

Recently a friend replaced a decrepit and more or less untunable and unworkable piano with a good electronic piano. She asked to borrow a tuner from me, as the electronic piano sounded out of tune to her. I loaned her a tuner, and explained what to expect about stretched octaves in the treble and bass ranges. She later returned the tuner, reporting that the piano was right on pitch, with the octave stretching I had told her about. It seems she was quite unused to hearing an in-tune piano in her home!

I think that those of us who appreciate really in-tune chords should educate others about the pleasures of listening to and playing REALLY in tune. We can open up whole new worlds for those others!

Cheers,
Allen

Scene: brass quintet practice.

the very last chord of a piece is a G major chord. it sounds out of tune. We play it again, and the third of the chord is being played by the second trumpet - his C# (concert B, all valves depressed). I point out that it is sharp and does his third valve tuning slide work. He say yes, it does, but he only uses it for the 1-3 valve combination (his D), as it is always sharp, but NEVER for the 1-2-3 combination.

Sighs...

I've said this before to the guys, but (and I am constantly amazed at how it continues to fall on deaf ears) that as a quintet, we don't need to play in tune with a tuner...we just have to be in tune with EACH OTHER.

In high school i had 2 band director, one was a clarinet player the other was a percussionist. After being at college for some time I went for a visit at the old HS and was talking with them about some of the things I'd learned over the time. I mentioned that, "you know, not only to you work to be in tune with the tuner but you actually have to work with chord function, 5th sharp, 3rd flat etc." and the clarinetist responded "yeah thats right, i've been trying to tell the other guy that for years!!!!" To which the percussionist said, "you mean to tell me that every piano or marimba I've ever played is out of tune?" ...well compared to a GOOD wind band....um...yes

Here is a site that, I think, shows the advantages and disadvantages of other temperaments. With a keyboard instrument, those perfect (or closer to perfect) intervals come with a price of some bad intervals (assuming we have the standard number of "half steps" per octave). The site demonstrates that.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/temperament.html

bttmbow wrote:One teacher of mine told me to "do what the other person(people) do, then you CAN'T be wrong." This could help that person, or even you.

To paraphrase this from my pro playing days, we always used to say "it's better to be wrong together than to be right alone." This applies equally to pitch, tempo, and just about everything else.

I come from, relative pitch means how far you can throw a cousin.

Roger

As a follow up, our church orchestra Christmas concert was last night. The flute player in question showed up not angry with me at all. Better yet, she actually played the chord in tune. In fact, she played better in tune during the entire program than she has ever played for me. I realize the sarcasm in rehearsal was not justified, but it just tumbled out of my mouth before I could stop it. Sometimes is it better to be lucky than good. Or maybe it was just Divine intervention. Relative to all possible outcomes, the concert was a rousing success. Maybe everything is relative.

Hey Andy, don't delete so fast. Yes I did compliment her on her playing and appolgize for my earlier boorish comments, both of which she was entitled to.

tbn.al wrote:I did compliment her on her playing and appolgize for my earlier boorish comments

I don't think they were so bad, rather, right on. When she first informed you that her pitched agreed with the tuner, you might have replied, "Congratulations. You're just as out-of-tune as a piano. Unfortunately, you're not playing a piano. Now, let's try it my way... "

The Big Ben wrote:So much better than to say "I'm the boss, do it my way" but, in fact, he *did* say "I'm the boss, do it my way" but in a way that the job got done. I find myself doing this constantly while teaching 14 and 15 year olds literature and history for the last 27 years.

When teaching 14 and 15-year-olds, it was once true (perhaps in the earlier parts of your career) that you could assume their respect and issue directives without the need for explanation.

Even 27 years ago, this did not work for adults. And I suspect it doesn't work that well for teens any more.

My experience is that if you can persuade an adult to understand and seek the same goal that you have, they will drive themselves to that goal more vigorously than you can push them. But if you don't persuade them of that shared mission, they will fight you the whole way. That won't be hostility, but rather just not wanting to be made to look ignorant or unskilled.

Remember that the flute player in question might well be a Ph.D, or a corporate executive, or some other person accustomed to attaining high levels of performance. Being a high-level performer in one's working life brings a level of confidence that might not be justified in their community band position, but it's not easy to turn off. With adults, you have to take people as they are or either remove them or yourself from contact.

I have seen a lot of conflict between conductors with professional credentials and amateur musicians. I've seen even more between poor conductors and professional musicians. Most of the time, I think an improvement in the resulting music was possible but pride got in the way. Often it was my pride causing the obstruction. The professional, or musician of greater skill, bears more responsibility for leadership, which means they have 1.) more justification for the pride, but 2.) more obligation to set that pride aside. I have learned hugely from those musicians I've been associated with who led from the front rather than by pushing from behind.

Rick "who has played in community bands since 1976" Denney

tbn.al wrote:As a follow up, our church orchestra Christmas concert was last night. The flute player in question showed up not angry with me at all. Better yet, she actually played the chord in tune. In fact, she played better in tune during the entire program than she has ever played for me. I realize the sarcasm in rehearsal was not justified, but it just tumbled out of my mouth before I could stop it. Sometimes is it better to be lucky than good. Or maybe it was just Divine intervention. Relative to all possible outcomes, the concert was a rousing success. Maybe everything is relative.

I'm glad it turned out well, and believe me when I say sarcasm tumbles out of my mouth without the appropriate filtration all too often. I completely sympathize. I also sympathize with the flute player--I've often reacted to being challenged, but later come around when I've had a chance to cool off and actually think about it. That's the fun part of conducting grownups.

I suspect that the concert would have been quite successful even without that chord being in tune. That divine intervention is just as effective in the ears of the audience as in the embouchure of the performers.

Rick "who, as president of his band, has learned to check his pride at the door" Denney