"American" vs. "German" tubas

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Post by Wyvern »

Rubberlips wrote:American: woofy, woolly, unfocussed?
German: brassy, trombonish?
It must depend on what models and size of tuba are being compared. My Cerveny Kaiser which is definitely a German style tuba is certainly not brassy, or trombonish - in fact it is a lot more woolly and unfocused than my Mel Culbertson Neptune or big York-style piston tubas I have tried.

What certainly seems to be a characteristic of German Kaiser tubas (having also tried the Rudy 5/4 and Fafner) is that they take a lot more air than a York-style BAT.
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Post by Rick Denney »

bloke wrote:So MANY models tubas offer such "interesting" intonation that I find any discussion of how different "styles" of tubas "blend" with each other in a band to be completely beside the point...

...the point being INTONATION.
Uh, yeah. For me, in tune = good blend.

I don't mind that tubas sound different in an ensemble or section. The TubaMeisters, when I was in it, had a Miraphone rotary tenor tuba, a Miraphone compensating euphonium, a Yamaha 621 F tuba, and a Miraphone 186 C tuba. Even though three of four were Miraphones, the instruments had very different voices. The players, too, had very different voice. Yet we would frequently be complimented on how well we blended and how people couldn't tell who was playing a melody that was passed between us. I suspect that timing, rhythm, and style had more to do with those compliments than sound.

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Post by KevinMadden »

tuben wrote:
tubashaman wrote:This forces the player to maintain tuning only by using your ears, getting little help from the surrounding sound.
Damn, and all this time I've been using my knees for tuning instead of my ears.... NO WONDER I've had a hard time.

RC
I think he's getting at how much easier it is to tune when you can match tone reasonably well...

though i'm not sure one would want to do this with a t-bone section it is something that makes tuning a section of tubas much easier. Also...wouldn't the 'bones be listening down to tune with the tuba rather than the other way around?
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Post by tbn.al »

I've been reading this thread with quite a bit of interest since I have spent the last 2 years trying to find my tuba voice. I have decided that for what I play, motly quintet stuff, a small German rotary is my ticket. My quintet clearly preferred my Miraphone 184 over my Yamaha 621. I also prefer the 184 in that setting although Dahlenbach seemed to do fine with a Yammie.

I also play bass trombone in a symphony with a very fine amatuer who owns serveral top of the line tubas. My favorite to play with is a PT6. Nice rotary German tuba. I never could put into words the feeling I get when playing with that tuba but tabashamen nailed it.
tubashaman wrote:The Miraphone tuba appeared to act as a magnet to the trombones. Searching out the trombone sound like a heat seeking missile.
It is amazing the difference between the PT6 and a 52J or Hirshbruner. The PT6 makes me sound better than I am and I don't have to work as hard to sound that way. It seems to suck all the good out of my sound and project it to the audience. Wait a minute, I am really getting wierd. Better shut up.
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Post by Wyvern »

tuben wrote:So, if a tuba blends easily with the trombones does that mean it is more trombone like in tone?

I don't know about all this... If you want to really blend with the trombones play a cylindrical bore instrument. Isn't the tuba an independent voice?
I rather agree with you on this one Robert. I have no wish for my tuba to blend with the trombones - surely if the composer wanted that he would have added a fourth trombone (or Cimbasso)?

I want my tuba to be a distinctive independent voice - that I feel is one of the attractions of playing a BAT.

Jonathan "who thinks the smaller the tuba, the more it tends to blend with the trombones"
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Post by kingrob76 »

Recent discussions and instrument evaluations have lead me back to re-read this thread, and while exact definition of Germanic and American sounds are non-existent, there seems to be a common idea for like-sized instruments that the American sound is more of a wall (cloud?) whereas a German sound is more of a column in nature.

Using this axiom, I started thinking about some of the instruments that produce a more American sound and I realized (as someone pointed out) that the manufacturer cannot be a sole identifier as to the type of sound a horn will embody. For example, Miraphone makes many tubas that sounds very Germanic (18x) and a few that sound much more American (1291/2). Manufacturers may have a tendency towards a type of sound but the designer (or consultant) of a horn has really the final influence - for example, Meinl Weston, a German company with a lot of very German sounding instruments, builds the 6450 (with heavy consultation from Alan Baer) which sounds quite American to me.

With this in mind, I'm trying to decide how to classify certain instruments based on the sound they produce without any real regard for a manufacturer. So, for the dining and dancing pleasure of the TNFJ, I submit this incomplete list of instruments (of the 4/4-ish CC variety) for opinions (along with mine as it stands at the moment):

Anything Alexander - Germanic
Miraphone 188 - Germanic
Miraphone 1291/2 - American
MW 2145 - Germanic
MW 2155 - Not sure, leaning towards Germanic
MW 2000 - Not sure, leaning towards more American
MW 5450 - Germanic
PT6 - Germanic
PT6P - leaning towards Germanic but some American tendencies
PT606 - American
Conn 52J / 54J / 56J - American
Getzen CB/G-50 - American
Hirsbrunner HB-2 - Germanic
HB-2P - Not sure, leaning towards American though
Anything York - American
Older B&M horns - ???
Nirschl 4/4 - American
Anything Yamaha - more American than not, but they are mysteries to me for the most part

That's all I can think while sitting here at the airport. TNFJ opinions welcomed and encouraged. Thanks!
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Post by Rick Denney »

kingrob76 wrote:Older B&M horns - ???
I consider mine to be a mix. It's not as penetratingly German as the Miraphone, but it doesn't put the kind of wide floor under the group that the Holton does.

Although, when I play a King 2341 (American style), I can make it sound less American than most. I don't actually try to do that, it just comes out that way. So maybe my B&M-made York Master might be more to the American end of the spectrum when played by someone who's actually good.

But your distinction of a 2155 versus a 2000 is telling. When I have played both, I thought the 2155 as a wall, while the 2000 is more of a floor. Given the relatively subtle differences between these instruments, I'm thinking this is all just goofy.

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Post by kingrob76 »

Rick Denney wrote:But your distinction of a 2155 versus a 2000 is telling. When I have played both, I thought the 2155 as a wall, while the 2000 is more of a floor. Given the relatively subtle differences between these instruments, I'm thinking this is all just goofy.
Bob1062 wrote:I absolutely loved the sound of the 2155 I played. I suppose that, going off the "sound definitions" listed here, that I would call it more Germanic.
None of this is meant to be hard and fast stereotyping of an instrument, just opinions. I haven't played nearly as many 2155's as I have 2000's so my own sample is small enough to be invalid. It's the perspectives of others that, to me, is most interesting.
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Post by iiipopes »

Newer 186 with the tighter throat but wider flared 17 3/4 inch rimmed bell: American, in spite of the rotary valves

Older 186 with the wider throat but lesser flared 16 1/2 inch bell: Germanic

My 186 with a shorter, but even wider throated and even lesser flared, 16 1/2 inch bell: looking east towards Alex territory.
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Post by Wyvern »

I would characterize my B&S PT-20 as American sounding with its broad 19" bell, despite it having rotary valves. However my Melton 2040/5 Eb is definitely German sounding, while my 6/4 Neptune leans towards American, but with some German flavoring dependant on which leadpipe is fitted.

I would tend to think the PT-6 as more American sounding too.
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Post by jonesbrass »

bloke wrote:It's really pretty easy to understand:

Compare two electric bass/keyboard combo amplifiers - both very high quality:

- one is equipped with a 12 inch speaker driven by 60 watts peak power

- the other has two 15 inch speakers driven by 200 watts peak power.
___________________________________________________

Turn the 60-watt amp up to "7" and turn the 200-watt amp up to "3"...so that they are kicking out the same number of decibels.

Which one might be offering a "richer" sound...??

Which one might be offering a "clearer" sound...??
Very interesting, my brother (a recording engineer and former tubaist himself) likened the speaker comparison more to the similarity of the speaker shapes and horn shapes. The american horns with a quicker, bigger flare are more like close-in speakers. German horns with taller, shallower flares are more like long-range speakers. FWIW.
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Post by MaryAnn »

Not having read all the posts I'll just dive in anyway.

The only American sounding tuba I've played that I had enough air for was a small McClellan ("Conn") 3/4 Eb. It has a very wide bell on it.

And of course I have my MF 184 and my MW 182. Both more or less "stovepipe" bells, the 184 more so.

From the audience POV, it would seem that it is easier to hit them with a pillow if playing an "American" style tuba, and easier to hit them with a volleyball if playing a "German" style.

But what do I know? I find the 182 F can be made to blend really well with a french horn octet, if one is a horn player.

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Post by Rick Denney »

bloke wrote:Yorkbrunner CC / 2165 CC / 2265 CC / 6450 CC / Nirschl 6/4 CC... "German" or "American" ...??

Only TWO tubas like these were made in AMERICA.
What? If you include the 2165, you must include the Holton CC-345, which predates all the German and Swiss-made derivatives.

And if you broaden the category slightly to include the Conn Orchestra Grand Bass, then there was a C version of that, too.

But I don't see how you can limit it to C. Clearly the York was modeled on a Bb instrument, and is really more a part of a tradition well-represented with Bb tubas, including the Conn Orchestra Grand Bass (in Bb), the Holton BB-345 and many of its ancestors, and so on.

The German copies are probably made better than any of the above, but construction quality isn't what drives this distinction.

I totally agree that the Yamahas have more British blood than either German or American.

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Post by iiipopes »

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Post by tuba kitchen »

I've been following this very interesting thread.

so, next question: which larger Eb (thinking of willson 3400 or MW 2141) would have a "german" sound and would fit into a german orchestra???

we play a lot of opera stuff (well, actually MOSTLY), so it's all middle and upper middle register stuff, and has to fit with the trombones. mostly i find the Eb sound VERY round and VERY individual when playing in the section, even though it's so much easier to have better intonation in this register on the Eb.

the conductor describes this desired sound as "schlank" which means lean, fine and thin. does this mean maybe a lack of vibrating overtones?

unfortunately, i don't play f tuba which seems to fit more into this "schlank" idea. the mirafone 184 c-tuba is much liked by the conductor for the verdi-pucinni stuff. for wagner he prefers the bigger c-tuba.
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Post by finnbogi »

tuba kitchen wrote:so, next question: which larger Eb (thinking of willson 3400 or MW 2141) would have a "german" sound and would fit into a german orchestra???
I haven't played a MW 2141, but to my ears the MW 2040 (the rotary version) sounds quite German - in a schlank, German F tuba kind of way.
At least I found it a lot less tubby than my Besson 981. I would guess that a Willson 3400 sounds quite like the Besson.
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Post by Wyvern »

tuba kitchen wrote:so, next question: which larger Eb (thinking of willson 3400 or MW 2141) would have a "german" sound and would fit into a german orchestra???
Definitely the MW 2040/5 has a German F tuba sound. It was designed specifically with that sound in mind (using a PT-65 mouthpiece).

I have had the chance to play test and compare side by side with a MW 45 and a B&S PT-15 F and the tone from the 2040/5 is midway between those two. The 45 is slightly broader, while the PT-15 is slightly leaner in tone.

I have also played the F tuba part in an Austrian band on my 2040/5 and its tone matched perfect.

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Post by Tubanese »

so...is the MW2141 has a German sound or the "Meinl Weston" sound? I think it has its traditional MW sound. (JMO)
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Post by iiipopes »

As you can see, I tend to diversity, as all have their place, and application.
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Post by Rick Denney »

iiipopes wrote:As you can see, I tend to diversity, as all have their place, and application.
Me, too. My stable:

Holton BB-345 (American, by definition)
York Master (American in inspiration, but Germanic in execution)
Miraphone 186 (Sprechen sie Deutsch?)
Martin TU-31 (There's no place like plastic home)

B&S Symphonie F (as German as it gets, in a Marxist sort of a way)
Yamaha YFB-621 (as Bloke accurately observed, British to the core, except for the "Made in Japan" bit)

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