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Postby tuben » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:53 pm

tubashaman wrote:Baadsvik in one of his articles stated that the miraphone Norwegian star blended and was more intune with a certain trombone section, better than the tuba model that the trombones were using


What?
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Postby Greg » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:35 am

I think that statement is essentially comparing Baadsvik's Hirsbrunner Eb to the newer Miraphone. They are both German style wrap and sound concept. I could be wrong but I believe he was comparing his "old" solo instrument with the new Miraphone.
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Postby tuben » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:02 am

tubashaman wrote:This forces the player to maintain tuning only by using your ears, getting little help from the surrounding sound.


Damn, and all this time I've been using my knees for tuning instead of my ears.... NO WONDER I've had a hard time.

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Postby tuben » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:05 am

tubashaman wrote: The Miraphone tuba appeared to act as a magnet to the trombones. Searching out the trombone sound like a heat seeking missile. The other tuba acted more or less like an opposite magnet. It simply would not blend.


So, if a tuba blends easily with the trombones does that mean it is more trombone like in tone?

I don't know about all this... If you want to really blend with the trombones play a cylindrical bore instrument. Isn't the tuba an independent voice?

Sigh..... I think I've had about enough of tubenet. I'll see you guys in a few months.

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Postby KevinMadden » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:11 am

tuben wrote:
tubashaman wrote:This forces the player to maintain tuning only by using your ears, getting little help from the surrounding sound.


Damn, and all this time I've been using my knees for tuning instead of my ears.... NO WONDER I've had a hard time.

RC


I think he's getting at how much easier it is to tune when you can match tone reasonably well...

though i'm not sure one would want to do this with a t-bone section it is something that makes tuning a section of tubas much easier. Also...wouldn't the 'bones be listening down to tune with the tuba rather than the other way around?
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Postby dbase » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:59 pm

I want to thank everyone who post. This has helped a lot.
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Postby tbn.al » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:26 pm

I've been reading this thread with quite a bit of interest since I have spent the last 2 years trying to find my tuba voice. I have decided that for what I play, motly quintet stuff, a small German rotary is my ticket. My quintet clearly preferred my Miraphone 184 over my Yamaha 621. I also prefer the 184 in that setting although Dahlenbach seemed to do fine with a Yammie.

I also play bass trombone in a symphony with a very fine amatuer who owns serveral top of the line tubas. My favorite to play with is a PT6. Nice rotary German tuba. I never could put into words the feeling I get when playing with that tuba but tabashamen nailed it.

tubashaman wrote:The Miraphone tuba appeared to act as a magnet to the trombones. Searching out the trombone sound like a heat seeking missile.


It is amazing the difference between the PT6 and a 52J or Hirshbruner. The PT6 makes me sound better than I am and I don't have to work as hard to sound that way. It seems to suck all the good out of my sound and project it to the audience. Wait a minute, I am really getting wierd. Better shut up.
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Postby Wyvern » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:01 pm

tuben wrote:So, if a tuba blends easily with the trombones does that mean it is more trombone like in tone?

I don't know about all this... If you want to really blend with the trombones play a cylindrical bore instrument. Isn't the tuba an independent voice?

I rather agree with you on this one Robert. I have no wish for my tuba to blend with the trombones - surely if the composer wanted that he would have added a fourth trombone (or Cimbasso)?

I want my tuba to be a distinctive independent voice - that I feel is one of the attractions of playing a BAT.

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Postby kingrob76 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:51 pm

Recent discussions and instrument evaluations have lead me back to re-read this thread, and while exact definition of Germanic and American sounds are non-existent, there seems to be a common idea for like-sized instruments that the American sound is more of a wall (cloud?) whereas a German sound is more of a column in nature.

Using this axiom, I started thinking about some of the instruments that produce a more American sound and I realized (as someone pointed out) that the manufacturer cannot be a sole identifier as to the type of sound a horn will embody. For example, Miraphone makes many tubas that sounds very Germanic (18x) and a few that sound much more American (1291/2). Manufacturers may have a tendency towards a type of sound but the designer (or consultant) of a horn has really the final influence - for example, Meinl Weston, a German company with a lot of very German sounding instruments, builds the 6450 (with heavy consultation from Alan Baer) which sounds quite American to me.

With this in mind, I'm trying to decide how to classify certain instruments based on the sound they produce without any real regard for a manufacturer. So, for the dining and dancing pleasure of the TNFJ, I submit this incomplete list of instruments (of the 4/4-ish CC variety) for opinions (along with mine as it stands at the moment):

Anything Alexander - Germanic
Miraphone 188 - Germanic
Miraphone 1291/2 - American
MW 2145 - Germanic
MW 2155 - Not sure, leaning towards Germanic
MW 2000 - Not sure, leaning towards more American
MW 5450 - Germanic
PT6 - Germanic
PT6P - leaning towards Germanic but some American tendencies
PT606 - American
Conn 52J / 54J / 56J - American
Getzen CB/G-50 - American
Hirsbrunner HB-2 - Germanic
HB-2P - Not sure, leaning towards American though
Anything York - American
Older B&M horns - ???
Nirschl 4/4 - American
Anything Yamaha - more American than not, but they are mysteries to me for the most part

That's all I can think while sitting here at the airport. TNFJ opinions welcomed and encouraged. Thanks!
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Postby Rick Denney » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:37 pm

kingrob76 wrote:Older B&M horns - ???


I consider mine to be a mix. It's not as penetratingly German as the Miraphone, but it doesn't put the kind of wide floor under the group that the Holton does.

Although, when I play a King 2341 (American style), I can make it sound less American than most. I don't actually try to do that, it just comes out that way. So maybe my B&M-made York Master might be more to the American end of the spectrum when played by someone who's actually good.

But your distinction of a 2155 versus a 2000 is telling. When I have played both, I thought the 2155 as a wall, while the 2000 is more of a floor. Given the relatively subtle differences between these instruments, I'm thinking this is all just goofy.

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Postby Bob1062 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:05 pm

kingrob76 wrote:
Miraphone 188 - Germanic
Miraphone 1291/2 - American
MW 2145 - Germanic
MW 2155 - Not sure, leaning towards Germanic
MW 2000 - Not sure, leaning towards more American


I absolutely loved the sound of the 2155 I played. I suppose that, going off the "sound definitions" listed here, that I would call it more Germanic. Oddly enough, I would consider the 191 to be very "Germanic" as well. Even though it is VERY similar to the 1291's, it does sound markedly different than the 1291 C (and a bit different from the Bb).
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Postby kingrob76 » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:46 am

Rick Denney wrote:But your distinction of a 2155 versus a 2000 is telling. When I have played both, I thought the 2155 as a wall, while the 2000 is more of a floor. Given the relatively subtle differences between these instruments, I'm thinking this is all just goofy.


Bob1062 wrote:I absolutely loved the sound of the 2155 I played. I suppose that, going off the "sound definitions" listed here, that I would call it more Germanic.


None of this is meant to be hard and fast stereotyping of an instrument, just opinions. I haven't played nearly as many 2155's as I have 2000's so my own sample is small enough to be invalid. It's the perspectives of others that, to me, is most interesting.
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Postby iiipopes » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:25 am

Newer 186 with the tighter throat but wider flared 17 3/4 inch rimmed bell: American, in spite of the rotary valves

Older 186 with the wider throat but lesser flared 16 1/2 inch bell: Germanic

My 186 with a shorter, but even wider throated and even lesser flared, 16 1/2 inch bell: looking east towards Alex territory.
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Postby Wyvern » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:31 am

I would characterize my B&S PT-20 as American sounding with its broad 19" bell, despite it having rotary valves. However my Melton 2040/5 Eb is definitely German sounding, while my 6/4 Neptune leans towards American, but with some German flavoring dependant on which leadpipe is fitted.

I would tend to think the PT-6 as more American sounding too.
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Postby jonesbrass » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:25 pm

bloke wrote:It's really pretty easy to understand:

Compare two electric bass/keyboard combo amplifiers - both very high quality:

- one is equipped with a 12 inch speaker driven by 60 watts peak power

- the other has two 15 inch speakers driven by 200 watts peak power.
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Turn the 60-watt amp up to "7" and turn the 200-watt amp up to "3"...so that they are kicking out the same number of decibels.

Which one might be offering a "richer" sound...??

Which one might be offering a "clearer" sound...??


Very interesting, my brother (a recording engineer and former tubaist himself) likened the speaker comparison more to the similarity of the speaker shapes and horn shapes. The american horns with a quicker, bigger flare are more like close-in speakers. German horns with taller, shallower flares are more like long-range speakers. FWIW.
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Postby bloke » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:18 pm

Yorkbrunner CC / 2165 CC / 2265 CC / 6450 CC / Nirschl 6/4 CC... "German" or "American" ...??

Only TWO tubas like these were made in AMERICA.

HOW MANY tubas of this configuration were made in GERMANY...??

...and HOW LONG does it take for a country's manufacturing to be able to claim a "tradition"...?? (Tubas of this configuration have been made in Germany, now, for thirty years!)

Yamaha YBB-321 & YEB-321 / Y: "German" or "American" ...?? _____________

wrong (sorry!) These Yamahas are ENGLISH-style tubas (copy of the top-action Boosey&Hawkes / Besson tubas). Further, the YCB-621, YBB-621, and YFB-621 feature ENGLISH-style bell flares, with oddball "Japanese" front-action valvesets pasted on to these 3/4-size ENGLISH-style tubas.
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Postby MaryAnn » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:29 pm

Not having read all the posts I'll just dive in anyway.

The only American sounding tuba I've played that I had enough air for was a small McClellan ("Conn") 3/4 Eb. It has a very wide bell on it.

And of course I have my MF 184 and my MW 182. Both more or less "stovepipe" bells, the 184 more so.

From the audience POV, it would seem that it is easier to hit them with a pillow if playing an "American" style tuba, and easier to hit them with a volleyball if playing a "German" style.

But what do I know? I find the 182 F can be made to blend really well with a french horn octet, if one is a horn player.

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Postby Rick Denney » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:54 pm

bloke wrote:Yorkbrunner CC / 2165 CC / 2265 CC / 6450 CC / Nirschl 6/4 CC... "German" or "American" ...??

Only TWO tubas like these were made in AMERICA.


What? If you include the 2165, you must include the Holton CC-345, which predates all the German and Swiss-made derivatives.

And if you broaden the category slightly to include the Conn Orchestra Grand Bass, then there was a C version of that, too.

But I don't see how you can limit it to C. Clearly the York was modeled on a Bb instrument, and is really more a part of a tradition well-represented with Bb tubas, including the Conn Orchestra Grand Bass (in Bb), the Holton BB-345 and many of its ancestors, and so on.

The German copies are probably made better than any of the above, but construction quality isn't what drives this distinction.

I totally agree that the Yamahas have more British blood than either German or American.

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Postby bloke » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:02 pm

Rick,

BBb's don't "count"...If they did, we'd be including the "shoulder-mount" 6/4's, 5/4's, and 4/4's as well... :shock: :oops: :lol:

...OK, we'll include the ten or twenty CC Holton's that were hand-whittled back in the '60's-'70's.
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Postby BBbDave » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:20 pm

Named for it's roots indeed Mr. Denney :!:


..... and Mr. bloke, though I would take exception to omitting BBb(horns(obviously), I wouldn't mind loosing those pesky little Eb's. After all, we only use them to teach the little kiddies with anyway and a smallish 3/4 BBb can serve for that quite nicely :P :) :lol: :lol: :lol:
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