TubeNet

My thoughts, in no particular order:

1) Talk to your teacher.

2) Try as many tubas as you can. What is your CC now? Was 8 months really enough time? Maybe there's another CC that plays better than your BBb. Maybe your BBb is just scary good, and something you should never give up.

3) If you decide to stick with the BBb, play the snot out of it and show them you're not "just another Music Ed. major." No one outside of our circle of tubadom knows what the hell key you are playing in. They just that you're holding something big, metal, and shiny on your lap and that it sounds like a tuba.

None of these are particularly original thoughts, but I hope it gets you thinking a little bit.

The thought is that the majority of CC tuba's have more quality put into making them. But if you find a BBb tuba that is better then it shouldn't matter.

Nor have I found one better then my Hirsbrunner but whats the point of not searching for the perfect tuba?

tubashaman wrote:
I think you should go to a conference and try out many horns, both BBb and CC and see which horn you like the best[/b]

agreed. Play what you sound best on... and play as many tubas as you can in order to make that call.

I switched to CC on the suggestion of a teacher (not my professor, a different teach) and ended up getting a horn I absolutley love.. However, If I were to come across a BBb I like more, i'd consider switching.

You might also look into some of the bigger Bass tuba's. The big Yamaha F, or possibly a Wilson Eb. It really comes down to what is perfect for you?, or what suits your needs best? I don't know if you can ever find that "perfect" tuba, but you can get close.

good advice on this forum though: try a bunch of different horns, not just models, but many of the same model; talk to your private teacher(your current, and the one you want to switch to); and most importantly pick the one that you feel suits your needs the best.

<i>I have seen many BBb players at App that are wayyy better than some of us CC players (no offense Jordan or Keegan, I'm including myself in that statement also);-)</i>

I can only assume that, as the American standard tuba for professional players, the best horns are usually CC. A company would say, "A pro player would be more likely to use a CC, so let's make a super-amazing horn in CC. We could make a same quality instrument in BBb (And might just do that), but a CC is more common."

And, because of that professional standard with CC's, that's why you really don't see any beginner horns in CC.

Well, of course a well-playing, in-tune, well-made tuba CAN be made in any key.

BUT...if you go to, for example, the Army conference coming up very soon, you will find that many of the tubas made are NOT the above. In fact it is a rare bird that doesn't need some easily-moved slides.

It takes a combination of science and art to make a fine instrument, and sometimes I think a little divine guidance too. ( ) but the reason why there are so many out there to choose from is that people's preferences allow and encourage those differences. But there have to be enough buyers out there demanding a certain thing before it will be worth while for a maker to put all the development dollars into such an instrument.

I often refer to Walter Lawson and what he did with French horns; he figured out some specifics about leadpipe, mouthpiece, and bell tapers that produced some very fine instruments. I use a Lawson cup and bell, and if my horn needed one I'd use a Lawson leadpipe. The Lawson tapers cause the instrument to be in more tune and much more easily playable than other cups and bells I've tried. Unfortunately the Lawsons sold their business, and over time it's likely that that technology will be lost. Too bad Walter was not more of the type of personality that is oriented towards marketing, because what he developed certainly would be of benefit to any instrument maker who was willing to learn from the math he developed.

MA

This seems to be a simpler issue than BBb vs CC.

The King 2341 you previously used is simply a better horn than the Cerveny you are using now.

I don't think anything else is at issue here.

Your original post is a little unclear on ownership. To make some (possibly incorrect) assumptions, perhaps both the King and Cerveny are school-owned horns, and you are considering purchasing your own tuba. If that is the case, there are enough previous threads on this forum you can peruse until your head is ready to explode from all the different advice.

The advice here is not necessarily a bad thing, but it needs to be a supplement to the primary advice you receive from your teacher (not a replacement for it - if you're looking for that, you need to find a new teacher).

Play whatever you feel the most comfortable playing. If it turns out to be a BBb tuba, then so be it. Don't be pressured into playing a particular tuba just to make "other" people happy. It's your money if you buy a new one, so YOU need to be happy with it! If they ask what key its in, just say "bass."

How about this. I had the same problem. I owned a Mirafone 186 5uc that was a great horn. For a long time i played it and loved it. Untill one day i decided to play The school's 20j. The low end was awsome. I missed that. So, I started makeing excuses to play it. Then, I decided to sell the Mirafone. I wound up tradeing it for my 5/4 Kalison Daryl Smith. This horn could swallow the Mirafone and still have room. Since it was bigger, the low range came out clear big (not blatty as the Mirafone) and the high end resonates very well. It has a 19.5 inch bell insted of the 16.5. I won't go as far as to say it's got a better low end than the 20j. but, it does have better range and intonation than alot of the other BBbs that I've played. So, You may want to try out some larger CC tubas that have a more BBbish feel to them. It worked very well for me.

I will submit that the difference is not about what comes out of the bell at all, but about the players comfort.

For many people, matching overtones and sound in an orchestral brass section that often consists largely of C trumpets and F horns, and a CC horn makes the task easier.

A lot of the romantic and post-romantic repertoire was written with either an F or CC sound in the mind of the composer.

Good players sound good on whatever they play, key OR bore.
Playing well with others takes an ear and finesse.

CERTAINLY, a work can be performed well on any keyed tuba.

Bandmaster wrote:Play whatever you feel the most comfortable playing. If it turns out to be a BBb tuba, then so be it. Don't be pressured into playing a particular tuba just to make "other" people happy. It's your money if you buy a new one, so YOU need to be happy with it! If they ask what key its in, just say "bass."

This pretty well sums it up. That being said, I would give some credence to what outstanding pros & respected teachers have to say. This might have some bearing on a selection process. Ultimately, however, it is your money.

Yeah, I agree. Try some other BBbs and CCs and what all you are comfortable with that fits what you need (size range etc.). The reason i Mentioned th larger CC was because it was a great comprimise. But this is great advise also. Just try some things to find what you're best with and stick with it.

Why would one key of contra bass tuba be better than another? I think most would agree that any number of design and construction variables could cause a tuba in BBb to be better than one in CC or visa versa. Certainly there is hardly anyone who would state that all CC tubas are better than all BBb tubas.

If all other variables are the same, I believe that SOME notes are simply easier to play on CC tuba than they are on BBb because there is less pipe that has to be used to produce them. C and B natural below the staff use the 4th and 2nd valves on BBb tuba but only the 2nd valve on the CC. This is in addition to the fact that the open CC tuba is two feet shorter than the BBb.

On the other hand some of the really low notes like D and Db, an octave and a third below the staff, may be easier on BBb tuba because they don't require as many valves to produce. Even though the total amount of pipe required for these notes is the same on both tubas, less of it is valve piping on the BBb tuba. Less of it is cylindrical, therefore it is probably going to be more open or free blowing.

Of the notes below the staff only C and B are produced with less tubing on CC tuba than on BBb. However, HALF of all notes in the staff and above are produced using more tubing on a BBb than on a CC tuba. Those notes are: B, C, Eb, E, Gb and G. Some exceptions may occur in the extreme upper register because of harmonics being closer together.

The bottom line is there are many notes within the practical performance range for contrabass tuba that are easier to produce on CC tuba than there are on BBb tuba. So is this advantage worth learning a completely new set of fingerings? Young players tend to learn fingerings much easier than older ones. I made the switch when I was 40 and it was very difficult as was learning F and Eb. Learn all the tubas while you are young if you are going to make music your profession. Make it part of your education to learn all of them. You can decide your preference later based on opportunity and need.

markaustinhowle wrote: If all other variables are the same, then I believe that SOME notes are simply easier to play on CC tuba than they are on BBb because there is less pipe that has to be used to produce them.

Is this actually true? If it is, I am not sure I understand the science involved.

TubaRay wrote:

markaustinhowle wrote: If all other variables are the same, then I believe that SOME notes are simply easier to play on CC tuba than they are on BBb because there is less pipe that has to be used to produce them.

Is this actually true? If it is, I am not sure I understand the science involved.

It has been my experience as a player and teacher that a given note is easiest to produce using the least amount of pipe possible. As as example, play your 4th partial note, (2nd line Bb if on a BBb tuba, or 2nd space C if on a CC tuba). First play the note open, then finger it 2/3, then finger it 1/4 or 1/2/4. As you add pipe it gets harder to produce for the following reasons:

1. More energy is required because of the additional volume of air that has to be set into vibration. (When playing, all the air in the open bugle has to be set into vibration plus all the air inside the tubing of the valves you are pressing down.)

2. As you add valves while producing the same pitch or note, you are playing on higher and higher partials. This note played open is your 4th partial, played 2/3 is your 5th partial and played 1/4 or 1/2/4 is your 6th partial. The higher the partial, the closer the notes get to each other and the easier it is for a wrong note to pop out by mistake. There is a greater need for accuracy of lip vibration frequency.

BBbDave wrote:why are the CC tubas better made/playing horns? ... Is it just that American Tuba Professionals want the CC and are willing to pay big $$$ for their horn so more craftsmanship it put into the CC?

There are great Bb tubas, new and old. And there are great C tubas, new and old.

As I said in another thread, the folks who by C tubas think of themselves as in the pro market, and are therefore buying a tool of the trade. Just as a mechanic spends (far) more for Snap-On tools, tuba players buying a tool for their trade will spend more for perceived improvements in playing, appearance, durability, and even cachet.

Not too many folks want a cheap C tuba. C tuba players, on buying a cheap C tuba, find that they really wanted that expensive one over there, and they still think they are at a commercial disadvantage by not having the more expensive instrument. There just isn't much market for cheap C tubas.

Bb tuba players, on the other hand, are usually school kids or adult amateurs, and for them the purchase is a luxury not a tool of the trade, and their choices are more apt to be driven by price.

Exceptions abound, of course. And there are a few cheap CC tubas on the market (e.g. Cerveny) just as there are some expensive Bb tubas (e.g. Meinl-Weston Fafner or Rudi Meinl Bayrueth). These exceptions, however, are conspicuous. One doesn't see many of these instruments in the U.S.

C tuba players are willing to pay more, but they also demand more build quality. They won't pay less for reduced build quality. So the makers have to provide good build quality for C tubas.

Bb tuba players are often more driven by price, and are willing to accept reduced build quality. They won't pay more for an instrument with better build quality.

Again, exceptions abound, and I'm not so sure that a VMI 3301 shows any less quality than a PT-6 made in the same factory. But the price is driven by the market.

Now, your other question. Why do people care so much? If you find an answer to that, you'll understand why vehicles like Hummers find any buyers at all. People buy into a self-image, and maybe even a fantasy, with their purchasing choices. Needing to be a C tuba player might be a driving force for a college tuba player whose isn't too sure of his standing in the tuba world. Who knows?

But I'm happy about it. That those willing to pay the highest prices mostly want C tubas forces the prices down on great Bb tubas, and folks like me benefit from that. I paid about half for my Holton what it might have fetch had it been converted to C with the addition of a 5th valve. I bought an instrument in beat-up condition, and the C at twice the price would need to be very straight (though raw brass would be acceptable). Thing is, the guy who sold it to me made the same money either way.

Rick "suggesting that figuring out the price people will pay is the consuming work of most people in business" Denney

I went and did some research on prices as fr as this subject goes. and what i found was this. I went to 1800USABAND.com, Used to went you went to "tuba" It would have a list of all the keys and then all of the levles (Beginner, Intermediate, Professional). Now, they have BBb and Specialty tuba. Under specialty they have like...3 Ebs and a CC. But, on BBb they have great horns such as Conn 20 24 and 25Js, Holtons etc all of which are great horns. The way I would take this as a new buyer would be that BBbs aren't as....speacial as the others. But, if you sat a nice 24J next to either of the CCs I've played I'd probably take it for the low register.
So, I'd say (once again) It's what you want. If you want a nice big low sound with less blattiness go for a larger horn. If you want a smaller lighter sound that has great high ranger go for a little bit smaller. While you must get all the air to vibrate it's also good to have resonance. the more the tone Resonates through out a horn the more bigger and bassier it will be. This is one reason why when you put an F tuba next to a BBb tuba the low ranger will suffer.
It'd also depend on What you want to play. If I were gonna do solos (this is my opinion here) I'd want something a little smaller with a bit brighter tone where as this could make it hard to build a foundation for a band. I think this is one of the reasons a CC is so admired. It's a great in between of Big Bassy and Small light. It's better in some situations to have a lighter sound witch can be produced a CC. But, You can also prduce a nice dark sound for the back ground.
One other thing. Always try out a horn if it looks like what you want. Don't always trust reviews. If you look up the Kalison I have you'll find many poor reviews of stuffiness, bad low end, mouthpiece pickieness, thin metal etc. and honestly the only one i can find is a slight bit of mouthpiece pickiness. It all depends on what your used to. Head the warnings because they are likely true, but don't throw away a perfectly good horn because others did.

If you're good you're good, and if you're not you're not. Great tuba players can play $2,000 chinese horns better than bad tuba players play $10,000 German horns. (not saying that great player wouldn't sound BETTER on the $10,000 horn, <i>maybe (s)he would, maybe not</i>

anyways, I've said it once I'll say it again.

Try lots of tubas, regardless of key, brand, size. Think about what you need from a tuba before you go to try them. When you're trying them remember what you have in mind and pick the one that suits your needs best!!!

but as someone said above, you will probably find Good quality BBb tuba's at a lower price than Good quality CC tubas

There are plenty of people out there playing Meinl, B&S, and Hirshbrunner LEMONS!!!! and plenty of people playing cheapo GEMS!!!! so don't let brand be too big of a factor, though it shouldn't be ruled out.

I agree most definately on this one.