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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:18 am
by iiipopes
I have not done it personally, but that is a thought for the calcium deposits as a last resort on horns that you've tried all the conventional means of cleaning. CLR was designed to clean coffee pots, so it should not hurt the brass. I don't know about it's effect on any finish, however. Caveat Emptor. And you shouldn't ever need to do it more than, say, once every ten years or so. And if it's anything besides calcium deposits, it probably won't be that effective, just dissolving all your lubrication down to bare brass. All I would caution is don't leave it on the horn too long, and rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse, rinse.
Then rinse.
Did I say rinse? -- Rinse.
Then rinse some more.
Rinse....
And after you've rinsed until you think you're close to the Second Coming, then make sure you relubricate everything properly before playing, because the CLR will take everything off to bare brass.
Rinse and lubricate.
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:24 am
by Alex C
In my opinion, CLR is entirely too corrosive to put into a horn, it may well interact with brass. The potential for poisoning is also a factor.
If you want to use a mild acid to clean out corrosion, soak your horn in a 50/50 solution of white vinegar and water. I will warn you that it's gonna stink for weeks afterward unless you rub a tomato all over your...... wait, that's a movie I saw once. The tuba will smell like vinegar for a while no matter how much you clean it out.
Re: CLR
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:39 pm
by Dean E
EuphoniumPlayer87 wrote:Has anyone ever used CLR to clean up a horn? Can you fill me on the effects and cautions I should use?
Yes.
viewtopic.php?t=20265&highlight=clr+corrosion
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:43 pm
by LoyalTubist
Don't do it. The fumes are dangerous.
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:03 pm
by josh wagner
If it's silver use Simple Green and use proper dilutions, and for laquer i just use dawn soap and some warm water. But that is what i use when i'm at home.
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:20 pm
by Dean E
josh wagner wrote:If it's silver use Simple Green and use proper dilutions, and for laquer i just use dawn soap and some warm water. But that is what i use when i'm at home.
Dean E wrote:GC wrote:spray the horn all over with Simple Green cleaner, let it sit a few minutes. Spray off the Simple Green and dry carefully with a soft cloth.
Please do not use Simple Green. It is highly corrosive and unless rinsed out of every tiny nook and cranny, may permanantly corrode the metals used to make your horn.
* * * *
Evidently, Simple Green cannot be used on US military aircraft because it can corrode the aluminum, especially in the cracks where it cannot be rinsed off immediately. The brand's web site doesn't warn about brass however:
"Aluminum - Is it safe to use Simple Green on aluminum?
Simple Green products have been successfully and safely used on aircraft, automotive, industrial and consumer aluminum items for over 20 years. However, caution and common sense must be used: Aluminum is a soft metal that easily corrodes with unprotected exposure to water.
[Buried in the fine print!] The aqueous-base and alkalinity of Simple Green or Crystal Simple Green can accelerate the corrosion process.
Therefore, contact times of All Purpose Simple Green and Crystal Simple Green with unprotected or unpainted aluminum surfaces should be kept as brief as the job will allow - never for more than 10 minutes. Large cleaning jobs should be conducted in smaller-area stages to achieve lower contact time. Rinsing after cleaning should always be extremely thorough - paying special attention to flush out cracks and crevices to remove all Simple Green/Crystal Simple Green residues. Unfinished, uncoated or unpainted aluminum cleaned with Simple Green products should receive some sort of protectant after cleaning to prevent oxidation."
http://www.simplegreen.com/faq.html
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:34 pm
by josh wagner
heh, yeah you have to do all that if you use simple green, i use a soft soft brush with soap and water as soon as i get it out of the simple green, i do not leave it in there but like two or so minutes no more than that. then directly into the soap and water to be carefully cleaned. Then rinsed off extremely well. Sorry forgot to mention that part
but i only use the simple green on my instruments once or (maybe) twice, the rest of the time i just use soap and water. That or i'll just use the simple green if it's really bad. but normally all the stuff in my horns can be taken care of with just soap and water. Sorry if i left out information in the first post. My apologies.
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:58 pm
by sungfw
Dean E wrote: Please do not use Simple Green. It is highly corrosive and unless rinsed out of every tiny nook and cranny, may permanantly corrode the metals used to make your horn.
* * * *
Evidently, Simple Green cannot be used on US military aircraft because it can corrode the aluminum, especially in the cracks where it cannot be rinsed off immediately. The brand's web site doesn't warn about brass however:
"Aluminum - Is it safe to use Simple Green on aluminum?
Simple Green products have been successfully and safely used on aircraft, automotive, industrial and consumer aluminum items for over 20 years. However, caution and common sense must be used: Aluminum is a soft metal that easily corrodes with unprotected exposure to water.
Um ... last time I checked, they weren't making brass instruments or parts out of aluminum, and I seem to recall from my metallurgy classes in college that brass doesn't contain aluminum, just copper and zinc.
The pH of Simple Green is 9.3-9.5, depending on the specific product formulation (there are around 50 different Simple Green formulas), which is
mildly[/]alkaline. (pH 7.0 is considered neutral.) By way of comparison, both Ivory handsoap and Dawn dishwashing liquid clocks in at pH 9.5.
FWIW, as recently as this past summer ('07), Nanette Kappus, creator of Binak oil, recommended using a 50/50 solution of Simple Green/Water to clean brass instruments.
And handloaders (firearms) have been using Simple Green to clean spent brass shell casings for years without a problem. In fact, for many, it's the cleaner of choice:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/sho ... hp?t=21907
http://www.realguns.com/archives/072.htm
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:18 pm
by WakinAZ
Ah Wade, your lightning-fast edit was so quick I couldn't add to your off-off-color comment. Oh well.
I will say that the one time I used vinegar it was just mildy corrosive enough to clear out the gunk in my bathtub drain and expose a plumbing problem. I used Dawn and water afterward, so the horn didn't smell too bad.
Eric "on the sidelines using Dawn dish soap" L.
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:21 pm
by Conn 2J CC
I've used CLR on horns to clean out really stubborn calcium and lime deposits, but ONLY as a last resort. Inside a horn, that's really powerful stuff, even when diluded. If you choose to try it, don't leave it in there longer than a minute or two and don't let any of it get on your horn's finish. Rinse the horn with a solution of baking soda and water to neutralize any traces of the CLR, then rinse that out very well. In the end though, I'd rather advice someone with a horn that hard to clean to get it chemically flushed by a profession repairman, and let them deal with getting any deposits out.
Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:41 am
by WakinAZ
the elephant wrote:Just call me Quick Draw … unless you're a chick. If you're a chick then don't do that. Oh, yeah, you're not a chick. Thank goodness!
"Hold on thar', Baba Looey, I'll do all the thinnin' around here!"
Eric "old cartoon fan" L.
Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:45 pm
by MaryAnn
You got it, Quick Draw.
heh.
MA
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:26 pm
by Dean E
sungfw wrote:Dean E wrote: Please do not use Simple Green. It is highly corrosive and unless rinsed out of every tiny nook and cranny, may permanently corrode the metals used to make your horn.
* * * *
Evidently, Simple Green cannot be used on US military aircraft because it can corrode the aluminum, especially in the cracks where it cannot be rinsed off immediately. The brand's web site doesn't warn about brass however:
"Aluminum - Is it safe to use Simple Green on aluminum?
Simple Green products have been successfully and safely used on aircraft, automotive, industrial and consumer aluminum items for over 20 years. However, caution and common sense must be used: Aluminum is a soft metal that easily corrodes with unprotected exposure to water.
Um ... last time I checked, they weren't making brass instruments or parts out of aluminum, and I seem to recall from my metallurgy classes in college that brass doesn't contain aluminum, just copper and zinc.
The pH of Simple Green is 9.3-9.5, depending on the specific product formulation (there are around 50 different Simple Green formulas), which is
mildly[/]alkaline. (pH 7.0 is considered neutral.) By way of comparison, both Ivory handsoap and Dawn dishwashing liquid clocks in at pH 9.5.
. . . .
You are absolutely right about aluminum not being used for tubas. I went to the Simple Green web site and learned that the product lines have been expanded with one product specifically for the airline industry. Also, the site recommends silver cleaning for the jewelry industry. They also have a lime-removing product for boilers.
http://industrial.simplegreen.com/ind_uses.php
I read a post on a defunct forum about a tuba turning a green color after being left in a solution of simple green.
Here's another caution. There may be many cracks along the solder joints of a tuba, and those joints could harbor dried residue, which could become chemically active when exposed to moisture.
Some components in conventional and lead-free solders could become pitted and removed by chemical action, thereby weakening solder joints. I'd be interested to see where the component metals fall on a list of metals active in alkaline solutions.
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:40 pm
by WakinAZ
TNFJ wrote:Cautionary stuff about CLR and Simple Green
WakinAZ wrote:Dawn dish detergent and/or vinegar is pretty hard to screw up. Beyond that, as noted above, it's probably time to get a professional chemical cleaning.
