Cure my ignorance, please!

[davet]

Why are b flat tubas called BBb, c tubas called CC, e flats are sometimes Eb and sometimes EEb, and f tubas are always F? How many letters does it take to tell the key of a tuba?

What are pedal notes (or tones) and why are they called pedal notes? Is it a harp or organ reference of some kind?

What the heck are false notes (or tones) and why are they called false? Can false notes be played on True Tone instruments? Are they the tunes published in the "fake" books?

Someone please enlighten me! (Yes I tried the archives, but couldn't find anything. Maybe I am a bad searcher though!)

[Chuck(G)]

Why are b flat tubas called BBb, c tubas called CC, e flats are sometimes Eb and sometimes EEb, and f tubas are always F? How many letters does it take to tell the key of a tuba?

What are pedal notes (or tones) and why are they called pedal notes? Is it a harp or organ reference of some kind?

What the heck are false notes (or tones) and why are they called false? Can false notes be played on True Tone instruments? Are they the tunes published in the "fake" books?

Someone please enlighten me! (Yes I tried the archives, but couldn't find anything. Maybe I am a bad searcher though!)

The quick-n-dirty answer for the BBb and CC is that these are sometimes used to denote the names of the open 2nd partial pitches; i.e., Bb would be a euphonium pitched an octave higher, bb would be a trumpet, bb' would be a piccolo trumpet, etc.

The EEb was a marketing gimmick most likely introduced by Boosey in the 60's for its larger "professional" Eb tubas. Some benighted marketing type probably figured that Eb was a small tuba and EEb was a big one.

"Pedal" tones refer to what some would call the fundamental pitch of a tuba; e.g., on a BBb, the first open pedal would be the Bb on the 6th ledger line below the bass staff.

"False" tones are "fish nor fowl" notes that can be played on some instruments between the lowest note played normally with 3 valves; e.g. on a BBb tuba, the low Eb just below the 4th ledger line below the bass staff can usually be played open. This takes a bit of practice and results vary between instruments, but in theory it's possible to play chromatically all the way down to the pedal notes on a 3-valve instrument.

Hope this helps.

[Rick Denney]

Why are b flat tubas called BBb, c tubas called CC, e flats are sometimes Eb and sometimes EEb, and f tubas are always F? How many letters does it take to tell the key of a tuba?

What are pedal notes (or tones) and why are they called pedal notes? Is it a harp or organ reference of some kind?

What the heck are false notes (or tones) and why are they called false? Can false notes be played on True Tone instruments? Are they the tunes published in the "fake" books?

Someone please enlighten me! (Yes I tried the archives, but couldn't find anything. Maybe I am a bad searcher though!)

In the old days, there was a system of designating the different octaves using capital and ganged letters. The octaves ranged, for example, thusly: CCC, CC, C, c, cc, ccc, and so on. This system has largely been replaced by competing systems, but the designations for tubas come from the days when it was more popular.

It was really an error in application of that system, as it turns out. The system placed the octave boundaries between B and C, so under no circumstances should a Bb and C contrabass tuba be in the same octave designation. But when C tubas became more popular, those who sell them called them CC tubas to make sure people understood that they were in the same octave as BBb tubas.

"EEb" is a marketing trick to lead one to believe that the Eb tuba in question, because of its compensating valves and larger dimensions (perhaps), serves in the role of a contrabass tuba.

Thus, the doubled letters have come to mean that the instrument serves (or reasonably could serve) as a contrabass tuba.

But this tradition is full of inconsistencies. Even the biggest F tubas with six valves, for example, are never called FF tubas even though they can for the most part fulfill the role of a contrabass in many applications.

A better system would be to list tubas as contrabass tubas in Bb or C, bass tubas in Eb or F, and tenor tubas in Bb or C (the latter being the small French tuba, and the former being the class that includes euphoniums and American-style baritone horns). But nomenclature is usually not designed--it just grows out of common usage.

The fundamental tone of the instrument is the lowest note that can be played on the open tube. This is the pitch that is used to designate the pitch system of the instrument. (I resist the description that tubas are in "keys", because that implies that they don't play chromatically, which they do.) Lower notes are possible as you add valve tubing. They are called pedal tones as a nickname based on the pedal rank of an organ. A more precise term would be "fundamental tones."

False tones have nothing to do with fake books. They are tones that fall outside the normal series of notes. A tuba is a series of bugles. The open bugle results when no valves are depressed, and each valve combination creates a different bugle. A bugle with a tuned system of partials plays the fundamental and a specific series of mostly musical notes above that. Thus, the series of partials for a Bb tuba with no valves pressed would be the fundamental Bb, the low Bb, F at the bottom of the staff, and Bb, D, F, Ab (though flat), Bb, middle C, and more closely spaced notes above that. Some instruments (which includes most contrabass tubas to one extent or another) will resonate notes using different vibrational modes than the notes in this series (with the exception of the fundamental, which may not resonate easily on some tubas). You can find these notes by playing the low note on a tuning scale (the low Bb on a Bb tuba), and sliding the pitch down. The instrument will lose resonance, but if you hold it together, it will find that resonance again at about low Eb, which is the so-called false tone. You can finger down from there using the normal valve series. Thus, on a Bb tuba, a low Eb might be played 124 (though tuning will be difficult), or open (the false tone).

Most fingering charts from the old days show the false tones, sometimes calling them "priveleged" tones, and usually putting the fingerings for them in brackets different from the usual alternate fingerings.

I assume you mean by "True Tone" that the instrument sounds as written. None of the above has anything to do with how tuba music is notated. All tuba music outside the British Brass Band tradition is notated as it would be for a piano, and it is the tuba player's responsibility to know which buttons to push on an instrument of a given pitch series.

Rick "thinking it's been a while since this was explained" Denney

[Rick Denney]

...The quick-n-dirty answer...

As you can see, my not-so-quick-and-dirty answer took at least 14 minutes to type.

Rick "who didn't know Chuck was responding when he first hit 'reply'" Denney

[dwaskew]

Well, even if it DID take 14 min to type, it was worth the effort. Great answer to the question, Rick!

dwa

[RossK]

It was really an error in application of that system, as it turns out. The system placed the octave boundaries between B and C, so under no circumstances should a Bb and C contrabass tuba be in the same octave designation. But when C tubas became more popular, those who sell them called them CC tubas to make sure people understood that they were in the same octave as BBb tubas.

Rick "thinking it's been a while since this was explained" Denney

I had always assumed that a CC tuba was pitched a minor seventh lower than a BBb. (I play euphonium and live a somewhat sheltered life.) Thanks for your comments on this subject, Rick.

This leads me to another question, however. In my mind, I have always pronounced "BBb" as "Double B Flat". Is this correct? So would "CC" be pronounced "See See" or "Double C"?

Also, Rick, maybe you can come up with an explanation as to why, in my beloved City of Boise, some of the downtown traffic signals seem to be timed for 30 mph, but the speed limit is 25....

[Rick F]

I guess we should all now know why Rick Denney is referred to as the "Resident Genius". Thanks for the great explanation Rick.

[TubaRay]

I'll take this one, Rick. The CC tuba is usually called a "double C" tuba. As for the traffic light timing, I know Rick can answer this one but I am going to pre-censor his reponse. Rick, I know what you were going to say.

[Rick Denney]

...This leads me to another question, however. In my mind, I have always pronounced "BBb" as "Double B Flat". Is this correct? So would "CC" be pronounced "See See" or "Double C"?

Also, Rick, maybe you can come up with an explanation as to why, in my beloved City of Boise, some of the downtown traffic signals seem to be timed for 30 mph, but the speed limit is 25....

I've always called it a "C tuba" and a "B-flat tuba". Everyone always seems to know what I mean, or at least they pretend to.

I can think of two reasons why the signals in Boise might be coordinated faster than the speed limit. One is that the traffic actually drives that fast. We traffic engineers like to accommodate traffic, not politicians who often set speed limits for reasons that have nothing to do with common sense. Shhh! Don't tell anyone.

The other possibility is not so favorable to traffic engineers. One of the popular computer-based signal timing optimizers models traffic incorrectly, with too much density too close to the leading edge of the platoon. That same software can't model a minor slowdown, so if that excessively dense leading edge arrives a couple of seconds before the light turns green, the whole platoon is charged with a stop even though nobody will actually have to stop. The optimizer, therefore, has two reasons to make the signal turn green sooner, both of which are incorrect. I've written papers on the subject, but most people who do signal timing have sold their souls to such software and could not do it on their own to save their lives. It's endlessly frustrating to those of us who have troubled ourselves to actually know the underlying theory.

(Beware! Asking me about traffic flow is hazardous to your health. Or at least to your wakefulness. And, yes, I know you didn't really want me to explain why the singals are set for too fast a speed in Boise.)

Rick "unfortunately not the least pedantic member of the Transportation Research Board Standing Committee on Traffic Flow Theory and Characteristics" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I'll take this one, Rick. The CC tuba is usually called a "double C" tuba. As for the traffic light timing, I know Rick can answer this one but I am going to pre-censor his reponse. Rick, I know what you were going to say.

Too late.

Rick "appreciating Ray's attempt at saving lives" Denney

[Dean E]

Why are b flat tubas called BBb, c tubas called CC, e flats are sometimes Eb and sometimes EEb, and f tubas are always F? How many letters does it take to tell the key of a tuba?

How about some more confusion?
In much of Europe (including virtual Europe on e-bay):
--E flat instruments are called Es (the "s" is an abbreviation for some Italian term temporarily unrecoverable from my dormant, long term wetware).
--B instruments are called H.
Why is the pitch B called H in Germany?

[Chuck(G)]

The fundamental tone of the instrument is the lowest note that can be played on the open tube. This is the pitch that is used to designate the pitch system of the instrument. (I resist the description that tubas are in "keys", because that implies that they don't play chromatically, which they do.) Lower notes are possible as you add valve tubing. They are called pedal tones as a nickname based on the pedal rank of an organ. A more precise term would be "fundamental tones."

As you well should know, RIck, that one's up for some debate. There are those (Dr. Fred Young, for example) who insist that the "pedal" is the rogue tone and that the "false" tone is the true fundamental. I'm not sure I agree, but that"s why I said "what some would call the fundamental".

[Rick Denney]

As you well should know, RIck, that one's up for some debate. There are those (Dr. Fred Young, for example) who insist that the "pedal" is the rogue tone and that the "false" tone is the true fundamental. I'm not sure I agree, but that"s why I said "what some would call the fundamental".

I believe I've already referenced the esteemed Dr. Young on this subject once today.

Note that I said "fundamental tone" was a more precise term. I did not claim it was a more accurate term. But at least it is not borrowed from an application on organ that is both less precise and less accurate than either.

(Mock pedantry aside, I when I play a pedal F on my F tuba, the result is clean and clear like any other note. The false tones on my F's are pretty bad, but F's aren't the sorts of instruments one wold expect to have good false tones--nothing fat about them. Yet they are there. Does that mean the F on an F tuba is a designed part of the series while the Bb on a Bb tuba is not? I have to say I have trouble with that. I have this feeling that a pedal Bb on a Bb tuba would be pretty clean and clear if I could make my lips vibrate at that frequency, which I can't more often than once in ten tries.)

Rick "who knows players of less skill who can rip out those contrabass pedals with no problem, but who can't do so himself" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Note that I said "fundamental tone" was a more precise term. I did not claim it was a more accurate term. But at least it is not borrowed from an application on organ that is both less precise and less accurate than either.

My trumpet-playing friends routinely warm up by playing sub-pedals (two octaves below the "2nd partial"), essentially using the horn as a quarter-wave resonator.

I can do the same thing by taking the 2nd valve tuning slide out of my Eb tuba (about 6" in length) and buzz the end (cleaning the slide grease off first), I get a nice clear absolutely reproduceable C#5 (554 Hz). The wavelength of that frequency is about 24 inches.

In theory, we oiught to be able to do the same thing and buzz a 15 Hz note on a BBb tuba.

So maybe "fundamental" isn't the right word, either.

[Rick Denney]

Rick,

Are these precise terms or accurate terms?

Neither. They are common terms, by which I mean that when I use them, you know what I mean.

Sorta like baritone.

Rick "back at ya" Denney

[Rick Denney]

My trumpet-playing friends routinely warm up by playing sub-pedals (two octaves below the "2nd partial"), essentially using the horn as a quarter-wave resonator.

I can do the same thing by taking the 2nd valve tuning slide out of my Eb tuba (about 6" in length) and buzz the end (cleaning the slide grease off first), I get a nice clear absolutely reproduceable C#5 (554 Hz). The wavelength of that frequency is about 24 inches.

In theory, we oiught to be able to do the same thing and buzz a 15 Hz note on a BBb tuba.

So maybe "fundamental" isn't the right word, either.

It seems to me that the fundamental tone doesn't have to be the lowest note possible, but rather the note that resonates with a single half wavelength of a closed-end tube.

Rick "thinking you can call it whatever you want" Denney

[jlbreyer]

Rick "thinking you can call it whatever you want" Denney

You say potatoes and I say potatoes,
you say tomatoes and I say tomatoes,
potatoes - potatoes tomatoes - tomatoes
Let's call the whole thing off!

John (was that musical?) Breyer

[TubaRay]

Musical? Naw! Just monotonous. Well, I guess some music fits that description, too. LOL