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Hello people,
a different thread on strange chops issues inspired this question:
I´ve been told to feel (and, consequently, play) a little on the flat side if my note is the third in a major chord (that would be the "E" in Cmaj) to make it sound "right".
Do you know of other rules of thumb of similar kind, applying either to different scales other than major
or different chord functions other than thirds ?

(Comments deleted due to irrelevant content)

General rule of thumb is to lower a major third and raise a minor third.

Found this with a little searching...

Unison 00
Minor 2nd +12
Major 2nd +4
Minor 3rd +16
Major 3rd -14
Perfect 4th -2
Augmented 4th -10
Perfect 5th +2
Minor 6th +14
Major 6th -16
Minor 7th +18
Major 7th -12

Thanks a million. I saw this somewhere a couple of years ago and have been looking for it ever since. Do you have a link to the site you pulled it from? Steak dinner in the balance.

Here is a slightly different table: http://www.tishkoff.com/articles/tuners.htm.

I know, I know he's a clarinet player; but I've played with him and he is a very good clarinet player.

There is also tuning for key color. For example, you may lower the major 3rd a tad to get from the tempered beats to a "true" chord, but what if you're wanting to create some intentional harmonic tension, as for example going from the I chord to the IV chord? You might want to raise that 3rd back up just a hair in order to create key color and harmonic tension to give a direction to the IV chord, to set that E nat as the leading tone to the IV chord, and not just the maj 3d of the C chord.

This is just a minor example. Bob Coulter, with his organ background and much more experience than I in alternative tuning schemes, such as 1/4 comma, other meantone, and other irregular temperaments, will be a much better source. I'm going to listen to his podcast if I can.

Hey Bob -- please post the link when it's going to air.

While I am very "pro-ear," I do think that knowing what direction to go, and having a rough idea of how much, will help an intermediate student.
Some of the electronic tuners have marks where the "just" major and minor thirds would tune. If you take a close look at the picture above, you will see small arrows on the LCD screen for the -14 Major 3rd and the +16 Minor third. Most people don't even realize what those are for!

FWIW, It is this "Just" lowered major third that causes the so-called flat 5th partial on many horns.

In reality, you probably don't have to worry about this too much on tuba - most of the time you will be sitting on the root or maybe the fifth. However, when I played bass trombone more often, I found myself having to more around a lot more (except on those cheesey pieces where the bass trombone part and the tuba part are the same or octaves the entire time )

In a recent post on another topic, Roger Lewis posted the url of tuneupsystems.com (more or less.)

From my point of view, it is simple ear training to learn to listen for beats and get rid of them. I was witness to a half-hour demonstration by Steve Colley (who invented the tuneup system) with college horn players. They started out pretty clueless as to how to play a major triad in tune, and within that short time frame of being taught what to listen for, they nailed it. It's not difficult; it's just not taught for some reason, my guess on the reason being that it "hasn't been" taught and so the vast majority of the teachers out there don't know it either. Why it isn't taught in college is beyond me. The problem comes when some players are able to adjust and the others are not; then you end up with the usual cacaphony.

MA

MaryAnn wrote:Why it isn't taught in college is beyond me.

Because...it's much easier to just scream "play in tune" from the podium, or say it gently from behind the studio desk.

Teaching students HOW to do things vs. telling them to do it...that's the difference between great teachers and...well...others.

Kind of like saying "go practice"...

in the brass studios where I did my undergrad, there was a big push for student chamber groups to use droning as a matter of experiencing the results of making these kinds of adjustments. All members would hold either the root or the fifth of the a chord, while one member played various patterns before passing on the chance to someone else. This eventually became a part of most brass sectionals as well. It seemed to me that the only way to make sense of all of this fine tuning was to give it a go.

Our wind ensemble director made a point of, once a year, having the horn professor come to rehearsal and speak on the topic, providing everyone with charts similar to what was seen above. I would guess that there are quite a few teachers and musicians out there who assume that you "either figure it out or you don't," but I suppose I was lucky enough to be influenced by a teacher who found this topic to be very important in finding the center of your sound.

Here is a most interesting article by a string player:

http://www.royl.net/html/astainto.html

Although a few things in the article are string-specific, most could be used by any small-group instrumentalist or singer. The interesting question is, do you really want to bend intonation that way? Also, how much of it is based on the notorious sting-player's adage, "it's better to be sharp than out of tune?"

In the majority of large ensembles I have heard, it would be an improvement if everyone could at least play in equal temperament!

Cheers,
Allen

begins every rehearsal with about 20 minutes devoted to the Guggenberger Basics Plus exercises. These are written in two lines and they contain the famous Chicowicz flow studies - in harmony - so you can hear where things need to be. This has helped us tremendously and we really enjoy hearing everything come together. We play each exercise twice; the first time with the trumpets and horn on the top line and the second time with the trombone and tuba (and sometimes horn) on the top line.

I agree that perfect tuning, or just tuning, or whatever you want to call it should be taught at ALL levels of playing - from day ONE. It ain't hard (there's that phrase again). My dad was a concert violinist so I was exposed to the differences between Gb and F# at an early age along with tempered tuning or whatever it is. My mom was a vocalist so she wasn't any help (just kidding).

For Mary Ann we refer to cacophony as caca - phony. Here's an interesting website that I just stumbled across: http://cacophony.org/

Just my hallucinations.
Roger

Roger Lewis wrote:My quintet begins every rehearsal with about 20 minutes devoted to the Guggenberger Basics Plus exercises.

Man, I wish I could interest my quintet in working on fundamentals like that. But we just can't seem to devote the time to really move beyond pickup-band sound.

Rick "with much work to do on intonation" Denney

Roger Lewis wrote:begins every rehearsal with about 20 minutes devoted to the Guggenberger Basics Plus exercises. These are written in two lines and they contain the famous Chicowicz flow studies - in harmony - so you can hear where things need to be.
Roger

I am familiar with the Chicowicz but not the Guggenberger. Where can I get it? I've tried, Hickey's, King and Pepper with no luck. This could be the most productive thread ever for me. I've already won a steak dinner bet and now maybe a serious quintet fix.

tbn.al wrote:

Roger Lewis wrote:begins every rehearsal with about 20 minutes devoted to the Guggenberger Basics Plus exercises. These are written in two lines and they contain the famous Chicowicz flow studies - in harmony - so you can hear where things need to be.
Roger

I am familiar with the Chicowicz but not the Guggenberger. Where can I get it? I've tried, Hickey's, King and Pepper with no luck. This could be the most productive thread ever for me. I've already won a steak dinner bet and now maybe a serious quintet fix.

I found them (and will order them) at http://www.justforbrass.com
Now I just have to convince the other four to use it!

recommend the TRUMPET version of the Guggenberger, not the bass clef one. I'm not sure, but some of the phrase marks may have been changed to make it easier for the instruments that move more air while playing. The trumpet version requires everyone in the group to work on extending their phrases. I feel it's a little better to work this way. I have no experience with the bass clef version personally. I'm just really happy with the trumpet one.

Peace.
Roger

MaryAnn wrote: From my point of view, it is simple ear training to learn to listen for beats and get rid of them...... It's not difficult; it's just not taught for some reason, my guess on the reason being that it "hasn't been" taught and so the vast majority of the teachers out there don't know it either. Why it isn't taught in college is beyond me. The problem comes when some players are able to adjust and the others are not; then you end up with the usual cacaphony.
MA

In my opinion, you are entirely correct about getting rid of beats. However, I think that at most colleges with decent music departments tuning strategies are taught. Students simply don't care enough to apply the concepts. Intonation is one of the most frustrating things to work with, and sometimes the most tedious and time consuming element of music to fix.

One can spend hours getting all the notes right with right rhythms individually, and still end up sounding like complete crap with an ensemble because of poor intonation. That is why it is so frustrating.

Almost every director that I have played under in my college career has had something to say about this issue. They may have approached it in a different fashion than others, but time is spent teaching this. However, most students just simply don't care enough to put in the time.

The average music student is an education major. There is this overwhelming feeling of "I don't have to do _____ because I am an ed major." Fill in the blank with whatever you choose, it usually involves not practicing as much as other people, or playing rep that is challenging. The bottom line is that most college musicians these days are LAZY. If something takes a great amount of effort (like playing in tune all the time) they just don't bother. This sentiment is not only limited to ed majors; it seems to be a plague infecting everyone in music departments.

The bottom line is that it is much easier to ignore poor intonation than fix it, and sometimes bad intonation has more serious underlying causes like poor breath support and weak embouchure.

This may (or not) be helpful.

Norm

A Study In Musical Intonation (by Chris Leuba, former Principal Horn of the Chicago Symphony)

https://secure.cherry-classics.com/cgi- ... SheetMusic

https://secure.cherry-classics.com/samp ... sample.pdf

I guess I've been lucky...............

My graduate applied professor would not let a student walk out of a lesson unless they applied the "lower the major third, raise the minor third and other interval tuning" concepts, no matter how well they were technically prepared on the material.

The wind ensemble director would randomly select two players and require them to play a randomly selected scale without "beats". We would be timed for how quickly we fixed tuning problems. After the fourth or fifth duet, people started to get the message and tuned quickly.

Tom Mason