Seattle Symphony followup article

[The Big Ben]

Hi:

A few weeks ago, a link to an NY Times article about problems within the Seattle Symphony was posted.

Without comment, here is a follow up articel for the Seattle Weekly, a somewhat liberal arts/politics focussed weekly paper:

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2008-01-16 ... -court.php

[Robert Simmons]

This is simply pathetic. What a tuba player wouldn't give for the opportunity to make a living playing in a fine orchestra! As a band director who has had to "dish it out" on occasion I have no sympathy for a sniveling violin player. I don't mean to offend the sensitivities of anyone here, but it seems to me that a musician that can't withstand a conductor's glare can't possibly have the strength of character to produce worthwhile music.

[TubaRay]

I don't mean to offend the sensitivities of anyone here, but it seems to me that a musician that can't withstand a conductor's glare can't possibly have the strength of character to produce worthwhile music.

I'm not sure if I agree with this or not, but I do believe he is just trying to be difficult and not fit in. It seems to me that an orchestra member should be actively trying to fit in. In my opinion, this behavior is totally inappropriate.

[The Big Ben]

I don't mean to offend the sensitivities of anyone here, but it seems to me that a musician that can't withstand a conductor's glare can't possibly have the strength of character to produce worthwhile music.

I'm not sure if I agree with this or not, but I do believe he is just trying to be difficult and not fit in. It seems to me that an orchestra member should be actively trying to fit in. In my opinion, this behavior is totally inappropriate.

It's difficult being in group with this stuff going on. I suffered under such difficult people in my job (not music) for about five years. It had nothing to do with me but it made going to work kinda suck.

"The tuba player in this fine orchestra" (SSO) frequents this list but I can't imagine him commenting for obvious reasons. Maybe we can get him at Blokestock and pour mint juleps into him until he spills the beans... (And give us all a short lesson before he gets too drunk!)

[sungfw]

I don't mean to offend the sensitivities of anyone here, but it seems to me that a musician that can't withstand a conductor's glare can't possibly have the strength of character to produce worthwhile music.

Excuse me, but did you read the NY Times article?

When even Schwarz's supporters within the SSO admit he can be dictatorial and a Jeckyll/Hyde, and that a change of conductor would not be a bad thing, the problems go a LOT deeper than just the conductor glaring at a musician.

[windshieldbug]

One thing that always strikes me is how often the public at large perceives a Music Director as a lone prophet, who graciously deigns to enlighten an unwilling orchestra with their vision, who, in turn, communicate, however poorly, that devine concept to the public.

In fact, since all must work together, and players often have MORE experience and knowledge about a work, a better model is an effective CEO. One who, as a manager, creates an open working environment and FOCUSES the orchestra's collaboration, and also represents the organization as a whole to existing and potential outside investors.

The issue is not one so much of personalities, but of managing expectations.

[Robert Simmons]

Excuse me, but did you read the NY Times article?

Yes I did read the article. I'm sure Schwartz is a tyrant (after all, he's a trumpet player). Still, the musician needs to deal with it and just play the music. If the conductor's going to self-destruct, the entire orchestra doesn't need to meltdown with him. If the sensitive violinist can't work with a group, maybe he can be a solo musician and stand on the street at the Pike Place Market. On second thought, if he can't get along with people, that's not the place for him either. It's not enough to be a fine player, you've got to have the "whole package", that is- musical skill, people skills, the ability to endure hardship (they happen all the time). Resorting to litigation to solve a problem like this causes far-reaching harm.

[sungfw]

Still, the musician needs to deal with it and just play the music.

And do you also think that a woman in the workplace should ignore sexual comments from her boss and do just her job, or a minority person just put up with a racially hostile work environment and just do his or her job? If not, what's the difference?

[Robert Simmons]

It is different because sexual harrassment and minority rights infringement (which are illegal) are not what's happening here. This is not an office or normal workplace environment, but rather, a collective artistic endeavor. The sensitive violinist isn't cooperating in the effort. By the very nature of the institution, a symphony orchestra is an economically fragile entity. Too many tantrums and it becomes a nuisance to keep around. Then we all lose. If the conductor's a jerk, do your best anyway. Work for positive change and be patient.

[The Big Ben]

Follow up to the followup:

The violinist's case has been tossed.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/classical ... man26.html

EDIT a day later:

A more in depth comment. The violinist is appealing. He is scheduled to return to the SSO in Feb.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ony26.html

[sungfw]

It is different because sexual harrassment and minority rights infringement (which are illegal) are not what's happening here.

You might want to spend some time studying employment law. Harrassment of ANY KIND in the workplace is illegal. The sole issue in this instance is whether or not what Schwarz is alleged to have done rises to the level of harrassment, as defined by law.

This is not an office or normal workplace environment, but rather, a collective artistic endeavor.

I suspect you will find that OSHA, the EEOC, the IRS, and the AFM tke a very different view of whether or not a "collective artistic endeavor" constitutes a "normal workplace environment."

[Robert Simmons]

Maybe so, but if "sniveling, whiney, underappreciated musician" becomes a protected class we might as well all pack it in.

[Robert Simmons]

I suspect you will find that OSHA, the EEOC, the IRS, and the AFM tke a very different view of whether or not a "collective artistic endeavor" constitutes a "normal workplace environment."

You've got the AFM and the IRS listed together here. I'd call that a really toxic combination.

[sungfw]

You've got the AFM and the IRS listed together here. I'd call that a really toxic combination.

Whether or not you like the juxtaposition, they line up on the same side of the issue here.

[sungfw]

Maybe so, but if "sniveling, whiney, underappreciated musician" becomes a protected class we might as well all pack it in.

If you were in a situation similar to Kaman's and subjected to the treatment he alleges Schwarz directed at him over the past 24 years, I doubt you'd characterize yourself as a "sniveling, whiney underappreciated musician," but with you being a band director, musicians never have legitimate grievences, do they?

[Robert Simmons]

This is beginning to get distasteful. I'm sure Schwartz is a tyrant, I'm equally certain that Kaman needs professional help. The carping remark about band directors is revealing. Really, we're not all jerks. It is a rewarding career field that allows one to have a positive effect on the community as well as a degree of musical satisfaction. It certainly does not preclude the possibility of being a serious performer.

[sungfw]

The carping remark about band directors is revealing.

No more revealing than your assumption, based solely on a few newspaper articles, that Kaman's complaints are groundless and that he is a "sniveling, whiney underappreciated musician" who "need professional help."

The fact that the judge in the case tossed out the complaints on strictly procedural grounds (statue of limitations had expired), but went on to say that, had she the authority to rule based on the pattern of behavior alleged to have extended over Kaman's entire 24-year tenure with the SSO, she would have ordered the case to trial, strongly suggests that she did not consider the complaint to be frivolous or entirely devoid of merit.

[TubaRay]

Since I am a school band director, I guess it's time I get into the fray. I am a little reluctant, but I don't believe I can just be a lurker on this topic.

To be entirely fair, there are many jerks who occupy podiums of both professional and amateur ensembles. I have been the recipient of "podium jerks" crap on several occasions. If I am not being amply compensated(talking cash here), I don't have to put up with it. I can simply walk away whenever I choose. If this is a pay situation, I still have the right to leave, but I will be pretty motivated to stay. In neither situation is it often beneficial to me to act childish. I must admit that I haven't always behaved in a manner in which I would be proud when performing in a volunteer group. However, on the pro side, I believe I have actually been very professional. This is true, if for no other reason, because I like to play for pay.

In the situation we are discussing, I have to admit to having only a limited number of the facts. It seems pretty certain that the conductor is not behaving in a proper manner. The "musician" has apparently carried his lack of professionalism to an entirely different level. This has left him in a situation where he feels he has a grievance. However, he has not garnered support from those around him to a sufficient degree to achieve a change. I feel that is the direction he should be directing his energies. That is the only way he will actually achieve his goal. Doing what he is doing may, although I doubt it will, achieve a change. I don't think it will achieve his goals, however. In the process, he seems to have alienated himself from just about everyone. How is that is his best interest?

To get back to the "band director" comment, I believe this is an attack on conductors which in this case is simply not the main issue of the discussion. For the poster who brought up band directors, I am willing to concede there are band and orchestra and choral directors who are jerks. No question in my mind.

[Posaune2]

You've got the AFM and the IRS listed together here. I'd call that a really toxic combination.

Whether or not you like the juxtaposition, they line up on the same side of the issue here.

Seattle Symphony musicians broke away from the AF of M years ago. When I read the numerous articles coming out of Seattle, I find myself wondering if part of their problem is that they don't have a union, other than their own orchestra membership to refer disputes to.

Under a well crafted union contract, there are mechanisims for resolving many of the issues that are being reported in the press - typically somebody files a grievance, and if it can't be worked out through negotiation, it gets sent to an arbitrator whose decision is binding on both parties. The courts, and the press never get involved.

In Seattle, my guess would be that their grievance procedures aren't clear enough, nor are they final enough, therefore people feel the need to resort to the papers and to the courts to try to get their problems solved.

Yes, unions can be toxic, as can managements & conductors, and musicians. But in many cases having an effective union beats the alternatives, which can be either tyranny or anarchy, depending upon who grabs the power.

Eric Carlson

[RyanSchultz]

I find myself wondering if part of their problem is that they don't have a union, other than their own orchestra membership to refer disputes to.

The Musicians of Seattle Symphony are represented by a union, the International Guild of Symphony Opera and Ballet Orchestra Musicians:

http://igsobm.org/index.htm