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Howdy fellow tubenetters,

I play a standard Conn Helleberg mouthpiece and would like to try a mouthpeice with a comparable rim but a bowl type cup.

What model would fit this spec?

ken k

ken k wrote:Howdy fellow tubenetters,

I play a standard Conn Helleberg mouthpiece and would like to try a mouthpeice with a comparable rim but a bowl type cup.

What model would fit this spec?

ken k

Same question, different subject line for me.

"Bowl-cupped Helleberg" is an oxymoron. The Helleberg is the definition of the funnel shaped cup. However, I get your point.

I would like to try a bowl cupped mouthpiece just to hear how it sounds with my horn. As I have the Classic Helleburg by Conn right now, I was considering a Bach 18 or clone.

Am I right in assuming that the Bach 18 is the 'Classic Bowl-cupped Mouthpiece"?

The OP was looking for a bowl with the flat Helleburg rim also- is that available?

Curry makes a hybrid cup he calls a D cup. It is a funnel with just a little bit of rounding at the bottom of the cup. It really cleared up the intonation and presence of my 186, but didn't adversely affect the broad tone I liked out of my Wick 1L.

The rim is a little wider, but you might like that. If you don't, Vladimir at Dillons can recontour it exactly like your Conn Helleberg. I like an 18 style rim, and he did that for me.

For more information and other choices, contact Matt @ Dillons.

If you want a true bowl cup, and don't want to spend a lot of money, the Blessing 18 is "the best 18 Bach never made."

The LM-7 is a good mouthpiece in stainless that is also a modified funnel.

Then there is a chart here, so you can do more comparisons:
http://www.militarymusician.com/xcart/p ... ?pageid=12" target="_blank

You could also purchase an inexpensive, but great, Kelly 18 for @$30. I use one exclusively outdoors. It is a deep, but true bowl, with great projection.

The Perantucci German series are mostly bowls, but are expensive:
http://www.custommusiccorp.com/Accessor ... bampc.html" target="_blank

Jeff, try a Faxx 18 from either wwbw.com or Steve Ferguson at hornguys.com. Nice mouthpiece for $30.00. New Blessings are about $45-50.

Eric "who scored a NIB Blessing for $30 on the 'Bay recently, and will compare it with his Faxx" L.

You might want to try a Sidey MB - the new design Paul has out. It sounds like it's exactly what you're looking for in stainless. On an aside, I have one of the original SSH's and it is an excellent, well made piece.

Here's a deal on a new-in-box Blessing 18: http://cgi.ebay.com/BLESSING-18-TUBA-MO ... dZViewItem

I have an 18 and while it is not a funnel shaped cup, it is not a real big bowl type cup either.

I am thinking more like the cup on a 24AW. That is a real round bowl type cup.

Of course that rim is something completely different....

ken k

Greg wrote:Don't most "18" have a rim that is completely different than what the original post was requesting?

Maybe I missed something somewhere.....I thought we were looking for narrow with a fairly sharp inner rim. Isn't the 18 a fairly cushioned rim?

The new 120S mouthpieces now in the stores have a softer profile instead of the sharp inner rim of a few years ago. The 18 has two profiles: the older one is a little bit sloped out, and the new ones are like an enlarged 3C trumpet mouthpiece, more like the Wick 1 or Kelly 18.

And I've played some of the new Bach 18's. they are gravelly sounding and have resistance issues, probably from a turbulence issue of the throat and/or backbore. The cups are being made deeper than they used to be, and even though the spec is 1.26 cup diameter, they come off the line at least a 1.28. No, if you want cheap, get a Faxx 18. If you want good, as in more like the original Mt Vernon spec 18 with the contoured rim and good presence and consistency to the tone, get the Blessing 18. Also, the current manufacture 120S mouthpieces are a few thou under a 1.28, more like a 1.27 or 1.26 rim diameter, which is closest to the Blessing 18, which I measured one recently that was 1.26, just exactly the Mt Vernon spec.

bloke wrote:*wide cup Helleberg -------- Bach 7 (comparable bowl mpc.)

**narrow cup Helleberg ---- Bach 18 (comparable bowl mpc.)

I also like the Bach 12 -- does it's inner rim edge qualify as "Helleberg-like"?

Cheers,

iiipopes wrote:...if you want cheap, get a Faxx 18. If you want good, as in more like the original Mt Vernon spec 18 with the contoured rim and good presence and consistency to the tone, get the Blessing 18...

Respectfully disagree: I own and play a Faxx 18 and find nothing substandard about it.

Agree: I find no reason to buy a "genuine" Bach these days, seems to have declined with the rest of the "cyborg".

Eric "for whom the only measure of a mouthpiece is how it plays" L.

There have been enough variations in the Conn Helleberg over the years that it is difficult to say very much concrete about it. And, the current Conn-Selmer Hellebergs are now made in Germany, so it is even less likely to be what it once was. If you ever come across a "CKB 18" tuba mouthpiece in a Conn-Selmer or Conn box, that is a really fine German-made mouthpiece, somewhat large, that is nothing like a Bach 18. It looks a bit like a Dennis Wick mouthpiece on the outside - hmmm..........

I have had experience with the early Conn Hellebergs, which have a narrow, somewhat rounded rim with a little bite on the inside. The Conn Geib mouthpieces had a similar rim, and differed in that they had a little bowl shape at the very bottom. As I have stated elsewhere, I have become a big fan of the Geib-style mouthpiece in the past two years, and use one for almost all of my tuba playing. For me, the Geib model mouthpiece gives me a slightly richer sound and slightly better control in many situations compared to other mouthpieces.

There is such a vast array of mouthpieces now available that there should be a "right" mouthpiece out there for just about anyone.

Happy Hunting,

Dave M wrote:The 12 "feels" larger than the H. to me, though charts show them only about 0.01" different in diameter. With its larger throat, the 12 blows noticeably larger too.

I'm sure it is larger. Bach are notorious for making their mouthpieces larger than spec, by as much as .02 or .03. The "spec" for the 18 is 1.26 cup diameter, but as I posted above, they routinely come off the line at 1.28.

Steve Inman wrote:

bloke wrote:*wide cup Helleberg -------- Bach 7 (comparable bowl mpc.)

**narrow cup Helleberg ---- Bach 18 (comparable bowl mpc.)

I also like the Bach 12 -- does it's inner rim edge qualify as "Helleberg-like"?

Cheers,

When I saw your post I remembered that there was an old 12 in my contra case. I never used because it is pretty gross, but I cleaned it up and polished it and it isn't in that bad condition. I have been comparing it to my Conn Helleberg and it actually is quite similar. The biggest difference I feel is that the extra mass of the Bach mouthpeice makes it feel more stable (if that makes any sense). While the rim is a bit softer it is not objectionable. The extra volume in the cup also halps make the tone a bit darker too. Range and facility of the two seem very comparable. I still seem to like the color and articulation of the Helleberg better, especially for quintet. The Bach has a darker sound and feel to it. I will continue to play them "against each other" if for no other reason than amusement.

Is that the general consensus of the differing characteristics of the two styles of mouthpeces? Bowl cups more dark and funnels abit more bright?

The reason I asked this question in the first place was that I always seem to like the sound of other players i hear who play on bowl shaped mouthpeices. Their tone just seems to have a more "Cherubic" sound (how's that for a description?) I don't know if the bowl cup is the defining characteristic of their sound or not. Of course there are other factors that determine one's sound, but I thought I would at least investigate the bowl cup mouthpiece.

Once I find the perfect mouthpiece, on which I make no mistakes and sound like Arnold Jacobs, i will be sure to let everyone here know!

ken k

ken k wrote: Once I find the perfect mouthpiece, on which I make no mistakes and sound like Arnold Jacobs, i will be sure to let everyone here know!
ken k

We're counting on you for this. We are all hoping/expecting a cure-all mouthpiece. We'll be waiting expectantly.

TubaRay wrote:

ken k wrote: Once I find the perfect mouthpiece, on which I make no mistakes and sound like Arnold Jacobs, i will be sure to let everyone here know!
ken k

We're counting on you for this. We are all hoping/expecting a cure-all mouthpiece. We'll be waiting expectantly.

yeah, what he said

I will chime in on the LM7. I have been using one with the screw-on Helleberg rim (32.6). It is a very flat rim with a sharp inner edge.

I get a quicker artic response and better slotting on my Mira 186CC than I was getting with the newer 120s Helleberg. I would guess that it may have to do with the modified funnel and slightly smaller (IMO) rim diameter (or maybe it is the way that the sun reflects off the stainless steel ).

ken k wrote:I am thinking more like the cup on a 24AW. That is a real round bowl type cup.

If you want cushy rim but bigger inside than 24AW, the Yamaha and Miraphone mouthpieces tend be like that. The Yamaha Jim Self is probably the closest thing you will find to an overgrown 24AW. It has the widest external diameter of any mouthpiece I own, although the internal diameter is "moderately" large.

I favor the Miraphone TU29 and TU33 these days. With thin rimmed mouthpieces, I find that it takes more work and concentration to prevent the lips from getting blown into the mouthpiece with result that I play more on the soft, inner part of the lips and get a less lively tone.

ken k wrote:...Is that the general consensus of the differing characteristics of the two styles of mouthpeces? Bowl cups more dark and funnels abit more bright?..

Exactly the opposite from behind my horn. Maybe it's just dependent on the horn and the player. I like bowls in dark-sounding, penetrating German-style horns (gives needed color) and funnels in brighter, more colorful, velvety sounding American-style horns (gives needed clarity).

Eric "who bought a H'berg from Ken a while back" L.