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A bit of boring theory: When called a 23 valve, this is really a "flat third valve". That is to say, the "flat first valve" set-up is really a first valve that should play in tune once the 4th valve lowers the "key" of your tuba to C (for F). (None of the valve tube lengths are long enough to play notes in tune for a "C tuba", which is essentially what is created when the 4th valve is pressed.) So a flat whole step 5th valve is actually a "correct whole step in C" valve. Likewise a 23 valve is actually a "flat three half steps" valve -- but whether it is adjusted for the key of C (4th valve combo) or D (3rd valve combo), I'm not sure. It's a somewhat flat 3 half steps. All that stuff is FWIW....

Let's calculate low Bb -- which with a flat whole step valve would be 4,5. 4th valve lowers an open tone 5 half steps. 5 lowers 2 more half steps (plus a smidge to compensate for the 4th valve being activated as discussed above). This sums to 7 half steps plus a bit.

For a 23 valve, this equals three half steps plus a bit (almost the same "plus a bit as above"). You need 7 half steps (plus a bit). To get the "plus a bit" you need to use the 5th valve, which gives you a flat 3 half steps. To get 4 more half steps, also include 2 and 3 (1 and 3 half steps respectively). So 2,3,5 SHOULD be about right if I did my math correctly.

Beyond this, follow Joe's advice and experiment. Play the note an octave higher using the lower octave fingerings and compare notes side-by-side. IE: Play the Bb in the staff as 1st valve only, then 2,3,5 and see if they both have the same pitch. You can confidently play 2,3,5 an octave lower and it should have the same pitch characteristics. (I use this approach with my CC, because my tuner craps out in the lower octave -- but it's okay an octave higher. My ears work better here, too.)

A quick TubeNet search for "23 5th fingering" or combinations thereof will reveal some similar information -- I just did this yesterday, 'cause I was curious about this myself. I did the search to confirm my thinking and to re-confirm that I knew how to count to 7....

Cheers,

This type of 5th valve was pretty standard up until the early '70s. Example 3 on this site may be some help:
http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/5thvalve.html
Good luck to you!

I have two F tubas that each have a flat-whole-step fifth valve. The fingering on one of them, descending from low C, is:

4, 2-4, 4-5, 2-3-4, 3-4-5, 1-3-4-5, 1-2-3-4-5, and then the open pedal F.

The other one is:

4, 2-4, 4-5 (or 1-2-4), 2-4-5, 3-4-5, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4-5 plus pull, and then the open F. And on this tuba, the fingerings I use down here depend on how much time I've been spending with this tuba. If I'm short on practice with it, I really have problems down in this register.

It's true that the fifth valve branch is longer on the first tuba than on the second.

Point is that even if you had a fingering chart, it would probably be wrong for your tuba and your playing.

Rick "who sometimes even uses 3-5 for the low C" Denney

I've set up all my personal horns with the longer fifth valve that you are asking about. It's my prefered system for a few different reasons but honestly the now standard flat whole step isn't that big a deal to get used to. Having the longer fifth keeps people from wanting to play your horns though

Here is a rough outline of the fingerings starting on low C below the staff:
C 4
B 24 or 125 depends on the horn and what response you want
Bb 235
A 45 or 234 typically 234 is a bit better but 45 is often more convenient and still very close
Ab 145 or 245 or 134 depends on the horn
G 345 or 1245 or 1234 those are listed in the order they are most likely to work
Gb 2345 or 1345 typically the latter is better
F open or 12345 check out the run in the vaughan williams.. also gives you choices in terms of what sound you want on that note..

Good luck and have fun with your new horn! I think you'll find that over time the low register of that horn will pop *more* easily than your CC.

All the best

I really enjoy the major third fifth valve . . . but not on an F tuba. I loved having it on my 188 CC, really gave some good options for the low register. On F, I much prefer the flat whole step fifth valve because of the way the fingerings lay and because I find myself playing more in that register on F than I ever did playing below low F on my CC.
About the response in the low register: remember that you aren't playing CC. You won't get the same tone quality and you won't be able to put as much air through the horn down there. The biggest tip I can give you is that you really, really need to hear the notes down there perfectly and then allow them to speak. You won't be able to "push" them out.
Another tip: if you're learning the F, get some methods and etudes you haven't worked on before. The Kietzer Schule for tuba in F and Eb ( http://www.alle-noten.de/index.php?link ... num%3D2227 ) is a really good one to use to learn the horn (fingerings, etc.) and depend on your ear training (don't try to "transpose"). It moves very quickly from the beginner point through intermediate/advanced in all keys, with technical studies and etudes.
Good luck!

i think on the gronitz web site you can have a fingering chart

This is probably the best fingering chart for ANY older design F tuba, especially in the low register. Try every possible combination and then some; don't be afraid to use some very different fingerings than what you may be accustomed to. Playing in tune carries a lot more weight than matching what may be listed in some fingering chart

The Gronitz site has a chart, but my F is not a M3 valve like their chart says. I think it may be a misprint, or more old world craftsmanship...

Is this the Miraphone from Dillon music? I played this horn over the winter and loved it. I tried my buddy's Sidey classic II, the shallower version and it worked fine. You have to learn to relax in the low register and it will work just fine. Maybe a Schilke 66 would work too, it's not too big.