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German vs American sound examples
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:36 pm
by NDSPTuba
I "think" I know what the sound difference is, but I'm not 100% sure, so I though I'd ask for auditory confirmation. My guess of german sound is like on the London Brass cd that has the Nutcracker Suite arrangements. If anyone is familiar with that CD maybe they could confirm my suspicion.
Thanks,
Re: German vs American sound examples
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:06 pm
by Rick Denney
NDSPTuba wrote:I "think" I know what the sound difference is, but I'm not 100% sure, so I though I'd ask for auditory confirmation. My guess of german sound is like on the London Brass cd that has the Nutcracker Suite arrangements. If anyone is familiar with that CD maybe they could confirm my suspicion.
Thanks,
Follow the link to Bobo's solo performances on the Tonight Show. That is the classic Bobo Power Sound, and I think of it as German all the way. Compare that with Jacobs.
Bad German sound is muffled. Bad American sound is woofy.
Rick "Woof!" Denney
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:20 pm
by imperialbari
Bobo plays far too melodiously with his strong sound to demonstrate the German ways of playing.
One way tells us what the model for the MW194 was built for. Listening to the GDR parades and even some BRD military bands will tell of that style.
I like the German Brass, but what I have heard from them has not showcased the trombones and the tuba very much. However I heard 3 low players play some trio work for euph, F and BBb tubas. Very delicately played, very musical, but bordering on a feminine and even sentimental style.
Bobo much better combines power and musical expression than do the Germans. Still I prefer Steve Sykes and Øystein Baadsvik.
Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:44 pm
by highsierra
I would probably compare Michael Lind (classic German sound) to Pat Sheridan (classic American sound).
Russ Dickman
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:37 am
by Kory101
Listen to the Chicago Symphony play Bruckner 4, then listen to Berlin Phil play Bruckner 4. Equally good, but a very nice example of the differences
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:37 am
by Onebaplayer
I second the Berlin vs. Chicago comparison. To me each of these is a slight exaggeration of the oceanic divide. Berlin has always sounded clearly German, and Chicago clearly American to my ears. Not to say there aren't many recording of each that I own and cherish, but their styles clearly contrast across many recordings.
I feel I could blindly identify these two groups, while others (NY or London for instance) would be harder to identify.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:23 am
by goldtuba
great comparison. listening to the different orchestras is a great way to hear the difference.
i've always thought that Harvey Phillips had the typical "American Sound". his tone is clear, light, and very round. listen to his recording of the Effie Suite, if you can find it.
In contrast, i put Walter Hilgers on my list for top "German Sound". his playing on the german brass dvd of Bach is typical of what i expect from a German player; dark, broad, just filling the room with sound. It is still hard to contrast the 2 considering that they play on different style horns. That, and they are completely different players; one is orchestral while the other is a soloist.
I play on a conn 56j, and i would definitely classify my tone as "American", but whenever i pick up a miraphone, it's a much darker tone. I'm not saying that one is better than the other: it's all about personal preference. There is some debate as to whether there is a difference, but i think that there is. It's all personal preference.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:46 pm
by jimgray
Agreed - Walter Hilgers has always been the model of the Germanic sound in my ear, though there are other greats.
Sam Pilafian also has a wonderful German-style sound, IMO.
Compare them to Gene Pokorny or Warren Deck or Chester Schmitz, and you get a clear sense of the difference in concepts.
Just to shake things up a bit: there are some who play large piston CC tubas who have rather Germanic sounds. I always thought Floyd Cooley leaned in that direction (in a really nice way).
There are also those that play large rotary valve CC tubas that have more of a bright, American sound. Those types of players sometimes wind up switching to large piston CC tubas, where it is somewhat easier to achieve the sound in their head...
Regarding the original question: I think Eb tubas generally have a rather specific sound, and though dark in a way, don't quite fit my concept of "German sound".
your mileage may vary...
Jim Gray
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:07 pm
by Wyvern
jimgray wrote:I think Eb tubas generally have a rather specific sound, and though dark in a way, don't quite fit my concept of "German sound"
To my ears Besson/B&H Eb's and British tuba players style tends to more lean towards the American, rather than German sound, although the lyrical style of British brass bands have a huge influence on the British tuba sound IMHO.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:40 pm
by imperialbari
bloke wrote:bloke "of the bloke School"
Better than of the broke School.
K
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:44 pm
by ZNC Dandy
bloke wrote:pfft (sorry, but)
The sound that tuba players make is becoming more and more homogenized - just as regional spoken "accents" are being blurred by television, radio, and travel. Vast arrays of different instruments, mouthpieces, recordings, and live concerts/recitals by internationally touring musicians have become available and people from all sorts of places in the world decide that they like different sorts of resonance qualities and equipment.
If there ever were (??) descriptions of "this school" or "that school" of playing (of virtually all types of instruments and vocalizing), these can no longer be valid.
"good" school vs. "bad" school...
THAT I can understand.
bloke "of the bloke School"
Thats a damn good point. Seriously. The same thing is happening to orchestras. A serious loss of identity. I'm going to go out on a limb and say, that isn't a good thing. When did it become so bad to cultivate your very own individual sound concept based on your own set of influences?
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:57 pm
by tbn.al
[quote="tuben]With everyone wanting to sound like the Chicago brass section it lessens all of us.
[/quote]
I think that might improve rather than lesson me.
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:01 pm
by jimgray
Allow me to politely disagree with the notion that all orchestras sound (or are trying to sound) the same. This may be true of some American orchestras, but I have not observed this trend elsewhere.
Ever heard the City of Birmingham Symphony?
A few years ago I heard Simon Rattle conduct (from memory) this orchestra playing Rite of Spring in Boston Symphony Hall. INCREDIBLE! And they sound absolutely nothing like the CSO in my opinion.
How about Vienna or Berlin?
How about Montreal?
All amazing and very different sounds.
fwiw: the last time I heard CSO (in Boston, playing Bruckner 4), they sounds nothing like NY Phil sounded playing the same piece in their hall.
Two great but very different sounds to my ears.
Unfortunately, the BSO has not sounded great to me for years.
<sigh>
Given the extreme amount of turnover in that brass section, we may have another dynasty in 5 years or so, once things settle down. We'll see...
Jim
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:04 am
by Wyvern
Yesterday evening I attended a concert by the Vienna Tonkunstler Orchestra, so had a great opportunity to hear the German sound (and compare with the Chicago Symphony I heard last October).
Vienna horns were in use and the tubist was playing both a Melton rotary F and Fafner BBb (Adam
Slonimsky's Earbox and Sibelius 2 in programme). What was really noticeable was what a harsh direct sound was coming from the tuba (played by Michael Pircher), very different from the broader more enveloping American sound. This applied not just to the F, but from the Fafner. It was producing a (not at all BAT like) sound very different from that which I get from my Cerveny Kaiser
(which being English, I probably make sound like more a Besson BBb with turbo drive!).
This has made me think the sound difference must be largely down to playing style and mouthpiece choice, rather than the tuba itself.
I found the German sound most exciting, but feel the American sound more aurally satisfying - but all a matter of taste.
On a different subject - I could hardly believe what a big sound Michael produced from the F in the lower register. If I had been listening to that on a recording, I would have been convinced it was a Kaiser BBb!
Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:34 am
by jonesbrass
Neptune wrote:Yesterday evening I attended a concert by the Vienna Tonkunstler Orchestra, so had a great opportunity to hear the German sound (and compare with the Chicago Symphony I heard last October).
Vienna horns were in use and the tubist was playing both a Melton rotary F and Fafner BBb (Adam
Slonimsky's Earbox and Sibelius 2 in programme). What was really noticeable was what a harsh direct sound was coming from the tuba (played by Michael Pircher), very different from the broader more enveloping American sound. This applied not just to the F, but from the Fafner. It was producing a (not at all BAT like) sound very different from that which I get from my Cerveny Kaiser
(which being English, I probably make sound like more a Besson BBb with turbo drive!).
Nice observations, Neptune! I think the choice of instrument makes a big difference, but the biggest difference comes from the sound concept the player has in his/her own head. You end up spending years, consious of it or not, trying to make the sound you want to hear. I happen to like the aggressive, muscular german concept. Yes, very different from the "american" style, but great. I like the way it sounds combined with the trombone section.
This has made me think the sound difference must be largely down to playing style and mouthpiece choice, rather than the tuba itself.
I found the German sound most exciting, but feel the American sound more aurally satisfying - but all a matter of taste.
On a different subject - I could hardly believe what a big sound Michael produced from the F in the lower register. If I had been listening to that on a recording, I would have been convinced it was a Kaiser BBb!