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My English bride said that if I truly loved her then I would place a post about British examples. (Of course tuba players would have to come first before I could address the collective.) Fletch would be at the top of my tuba players list, but it would also include Owen Slade, Andy Cresci, Nigel Seaman as well. All manly players and at least two use Bessons (and produce a far superior sound out of them than I ever could).

Regarding the British Sound, the PJBO will always be my favorite (favourite) brass ensemble and I really like the LSO particulary when Previn had them. Considering this Sceptre'd Isles' rich musical heritage, especially with the British Brass Band legacy, is it possible for other members of TNFJ to add their two cents (tuppence, tupenny bit, two pence) worth?

There is something about the British sound that is very distinctive. I just did a review of a British soloist, Nick Etheridge, who was playing on a Sovereign EE-Flat. The review includes a couple of tracks in their entirety, so you can see if you can pick out the Britishness:

http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/display_bl ... 38C05D0249

When I was at the T.U.B.A. International Conference in 1978 (Los Angeles), a Salvation Army euphonium soloist performed with the Hollywood Tabernacle Band. His name was Wilfred Mountain and he was born in England. There was a question-answer session afterward. A young college student in the audience asked him how he gets that British sound. Wilfred said he didn't know. He just grew up with it, so it became part of his mind, and that is the type of sound he produces. The kid followed up by repeating the question twice more in different words, but Mountain could not come up with an explanation.

Part of it has to do with a very wide-open jaw and embouchure, plus the powerful vibrato, but I think there is more to it than that. Also, the players often cut off notes rather squarely, which I think is the result of playing so wide open - that makes it harder to taper the end of the note gradually I think.

Anyone else have opinions?

Being a Vaughan Williams fan, I have loads of CDs of British orchestras, including some from olden times. Based on those, it seems to me there are two periods of British orchestral tuba sound: Pre-Fletch and Post-Fletch.

Fletcher just completely upended the British tuba concept, it seems to me. Prior to the 60's, the sound on British recordings is almost euphonium-like, and a color supplement to the trombones rather than a distinctive bass voice. Fletcher changed all that, it seems to me.

British orchestral players didn't always use Besson/Boosey Eb tubas. Before Fletcher, they used the very small orchestral F tubas, which are really not much bigger than a euphonium.

Starting in the 60's and 70's, big tubas appeared. Bevan shows a picture of George Wall playing an Alexander Kaisertuba with the LPO (?) in the 70's. And Fletcher used his Holton quite a bit. But that was also the time players went from the smaller Eb tubas to the Sovereigns, with the 19" bell, and that also changed the tonal concept. That happened because of Fletcher's influence, and the switch to Eb in orchestras also happened because he didn't have and didn't want to use an old, small F.

My recordings of RVW symphonies from the 50's have a small and almost woofy tuba sound, but the recordings from the 70's are big sounds with a lot of roundness and presence.

Rick "who doesn't know who played on what recording" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:Based on those, it seems to me there are two periods of British orchestral tuba sound: Pre-Fletch and Post-Fletch.

But was not Fletch's sound highly influenced by the American sound? So really the post-Fletch sound is a synergy between the British and American sound concepts.

For other great players don't forget the recently retired John Jenkins of the Philharmonia. He highly influenced my personal sound concept as I developed as a tuba player.

Regarding where the British sound comes from. Nearly all brass players in the UK start in a brass band, so that is the big tonal and stylistic influence. In turn the brass band sound was I believe influenced by the great choral tradition in Britain.

I'm inclined to agree with Dave: open the jaw, use a deep funnel cupped mouthpiece with a large throat and backbore, and go for it. The vibrato is not as heavy overall as it used to be, and I'll avoid the discussion that one reason for the wide vibrato was to cover up the intonation issues.

I've noticed that regardless of which low brass instrument, from trombone on down, that the Wick "section" mouthpieces (excluding mouthpieces such as the 3SL shallow tuba solo mouthpiece) do tend to give a "broader" tone than any other mouthpiece, as well, and were designed as such.

As I said right after getting my Besson:

Cost of tuba, shipping, subsequent repairs, both necessary and elective, @ $700.00; Having to order a Wick small shank because I had forgotten, if I ever knew in the first place, that the receiver was the older smaller configuration: $75; Chugging along on the Holst suites, the Alford marches, and all such knowing you're basically playing the instrument they were written on and for: priceless.

Thank you, bass brothers, for the musicological and historical posts thus far. I learn so much by reading high-quality posts such as yours. I read a thousand times more than I post since there is no need to spread my ignorance. At times, the tone of the more learned responses, such as all of these in this particular instance, makes it seem as if I am back at UK (circa 1970-75) in Rex Conner's studio minus the (deserved) admonishments from Rex.

My time spent living and teaching in England left an indelible impression, not to mention a world-class wife.

You're absolutely right, IMHO, about the British Sound and euphoniums/euphonia, EP87. When I taught over there, I would watch the brass band competitions and marvel at the musicanship of the Brits who played those beautiful Bessons (didn't see many Yamahas during that time). Additionally, the contribution of the euphoniums to the overall sound/color of the bands was impossible to miss, like the British noble hops used in real ale (e.g.Fuggles, Goldings).

David Gilbreath

Neptune wrote:But was not Fletch's sound highly influenced by the American sound?

I dunno. Did Fletch study with Jacobs? His use of a Holton is certainly consistent with that general approach. But his sound has always seemed rounder and smoother than Jacobs's sound.

Of course, at that time, the American sound was not homogeneous at all. Jacobs represented one camp, but there was also the Bell concept of a tighter, more focused sound, and the Alexander Power Sound. Jacobs's approach has grown since then, and equipment consistent with that approach is more available.

But since then, many British tubas players have gone a very different direction than most American orchestral players, or so it seems to me. The use of the Besson Sovereign Eb gets a different result than Americans playing a large contrabass. The sound concept on those Eb tubas is round and full, influenced by Fletch, but it isn't the same as what one gets from a large contrabass tuba. You have written about that yourself.

All orchestras, perhaps American most of all, are playing louder and louder. I think they are trying to compete with the aural intensity of recorded and amplified music, and audiences may have lost the appreciation for truly quiet music. Since the tuba is the bottom voice of the brass, it defines one extreme of color, and broadening those extremes is part of intensifying the sound. That has affected tuba playing a lot, it seems to me. Trying to compete with trumpet and trombone players who are playing louder and louder is part of it, too. I think back to the tuba sound in the 1937 recording of the RVW 4th, which is nearly unheard, versus late performances with tuba players using grand orchestral tubas. The change is pretty profound.

Rick "thinking Culbertson had the same effect in France, and possibly with the same Jacobsian roots" Denney

bloke wrote:Did John Fletcher have a significant hand in sticking that 19" bell on the (previously) 15" bell B&H 4-comp. Eb tuba?

Of course! And also in taking one more German/Czech/old-French factor out of the old versions by putting the right leadpipe on the 981.
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bloke wrote: ' sorry for the "stream of conciousness" post.

We are so happy, that you are at all conscious on a late Friday night. No jazzing tonight?

Klaus

Congratulations!

I see, that Miss D. is airing the Bunny costume.

Klaus

bloke wrote:Did John Fletcher have a significant hand in sticking that 19" bell on the (previously) 15" bell B&H 4-comp. Eb tuba?

I remember hearing that the conductor, Solti complained that the 15" bell tuba Fletch was using was too small, so Fletch approached B&H to add larger bell and thus the 19" bell EEb was born.

Jonathan "who wonders if in fact the smaller bell is not better for its original brass band use"