Are these horns any good???

[jeopardymaster]

If you can visit them in person and try out their stock, you're probably better off. I did try a 200 once on a visit to Tubatinker. It had been damaged in shipment and was sent to him for repair. Played really well - pretty much in tune with itself, slotted well, slides all worked, braces sturdy, the whole nine yards. That's the only one I've seen, but I was impressed.

[The Big Ben]

Do a search on M&M here and you will find most of the information that we have. It has been discussed a number of times.

[brianf]

I have played a few of these at various shows. Are they top line professional horns? Nope. They are good made in China student horns. They are made well, play good and are priced right. They also have great gig bags!

[Lee Stofer]

This dealer, located in Florida, supposedly imports both Alexander instruments from Germany and their house brand, MM, from mainland China.

At different tuba conferences, I've seen the MM line of instruments, but have yet to see an Alexander tuba on display.

At a conference about 4 years ago, the quality of the Chinese instruments was poor. The TU-520 you mentioned looked to be a copy of a Conn 5J, and the valves were so loose that it was barely playable at all. I am not talking about valve guide play, either. One could grasp the finger button and rock the piston side-to-side.

At the Capitol Tuba Conference in Washington this January, I saw the same model instrument, and I don't know if it is representative of how they all are now, but the TU-520 was better. The valves were not so wretchedly loose any more. The instrument would play, but the quality of construction was still nowhere near first-class, and I wouldn't want to own it for a variety of reasons.

First, there are world-class low brass instruments being made in our own country, and the companies that are doing this should be supported by our giving them our business. Buying cheap imports does not give you a good tuba, but only supports the Communist Chinese government.

Secondly, I would have no confidence in a parts support network halfway around the world that really does not care about you, so what happens when you need a top cap, piston, slide, bell? A tuba might seem like a bargain if you can get it for $1,650.00 + tax and shipping, but if a single broken part turns it into an expensive paperweight or wall hanging, then it doesn't look like such a good deal. I can understand the philosophy of throw-away flutes, trumpets, etc., for the student market (although I vigorously disagree), but a tuba is too large and expensive to be a throw-away item. I advocate buying American-made if what you are looking for is made here, and if you want a rotary tuba, Europe has a solid tradition of making fine instruments that will last a lifetime.

Secondly, one of the reasons that inferior instruments cost less is that they use cheaper materials. There are a number of grades of brass, nickel-silver, etc. In the 1970's, early Yamaha instruments had mettalurgy problems. As they got better and built better instruments, they also used better brass. And, they got more expensive. There is simply no cheap way to do it right. Rudolf Meinl told me that his most basic, 4-rotor 4/4 BBb tuba takes nearly 400 man-hours for them to make. Multiply that by a living wage, add in shop overhead and using the finest materials, and that will give you an idea how costly building a tuba the right way can be. I advise people to buy the best quality they can afford, as it will be the cheapest in the long run. If you cannot or choose not to buy a new 1st quality instrument, I advise that you buy a quality used instrument instead. And, there are plenty of good deals out there.

Now, I will step away from the soapbox.

[Rick Denney]

At least they are real tubas, unlike some earlier Chinese models. I liked the rotary Bb tuba better than the piston tuba. I thought the 186 copy actually pretty decent.

I would consider them if 1.) I was required to buy a NEW tuba, and 2.) I was limited to a budget of $2500. There's not much solution space between those two requirements, but these will serve it and are basically competent instruments. I've sure played worse--many MUCH worse.

I would MUCH rather have a used Miraphone 186, with big gaps in the lacquer and lots of little dents, for the same money as a new Chinese copy. But that first requirement above has never been important to me.

As to the Communist thing, I wonder that nobody worried too much about buying Cerveny back when they were the cheap alternative, or B&S F tubas even though they weren't that cheap, when both Czechoslovakia and East Germany were under the Communist yoke. I have owned both, and no more ardent foe of Communism you'll find than me. I suspect that selling a few bits to the West were one reason that led to the subsequent freeing of those two countries from Communism.

Rick "thinking the instruments have to stand on their own" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

..... First, there are world-class low brass instruments being made in our own country, and the companies that are doing this should be supported by our giving them our business. ....

Lee.... I'm not trying to be argumentive here (well... maybe I am... just a little ) but I would like to see a list of musical instruments that are currently being made 100% in the US.

Frankly, no one should care where something is made as long as the quality is what one expects for the price. The profits aren't made at the manufacturing level, anyway. It's the sales networks that make the 'big bucks'.

I seriously doubt if any of the products that are produced under the umbrella of Conn/Selmer/Steinway are made TOTALLY in the US any more. And yes... that includes name brands like Conn, King, Gemeinhart, and Bach. Why heck.... 15 years ago most of the keywork and small parts were already being imported.

[Wyvern]

Do a search on M&M here and you will find most of the information that we have. It has been discussed a number of times.

Actually nothing comes up searching "M&M" - not even this thread.

Must be the & stops the search working?

[WakinAZ]

It is hard to find these "M&M" threads (the ampersand seems to confound the search mechanism), but here's one:
viewtopic.php?t=23639&highlight=

and another
viewtopic.php?t=15922&highlight=

One thing that ties a lot of these threads together is the guy behind M&M, Michael Bassichis (sp?), TubeNet user handle is tubamlb. Sometimes he jumps into the fray to defend his product, sometimes not. EDIT: He is also a TubeNet sponsor.

Also TubeNet user BBbDave has posted here and there about his M&M horn.

Eric L&L

[Donn]

I seriously doubt if any of the products that are produced under the umbrella of Conn/Selmer/Steinway are made TOTALLY in the US any more. And yes... that includes name brands like Conn, King, Gemeinhart, and Bach. Why heck.... 15 years ago most of the keywork and small parts were already being imported.

Even in the dismal worst case that everything is eventually made in China, there could still be a difference between Conn and ``unknown instrument maker label engraved on Jin Biao tubas.'' Though Conn may be importing keywork and small parts or even whole tubas, our question about parts availability is "will Conn keep doing whatever they need to do, to keep the parts coming." The people who make that happen are presumably not Chinese, and they're responsible to a brand identity that has been around for over a century. I personally am not a huge fan of the multinational holding company world, and I would rather buy stuff really made in 1st world countries, but that's just radicalism.

As for the equivalence between 1st world trade with China today and Czechoslovakia 40 years ago ... arguable, to say the least, but that way lies politics on Tubenet, surely not a good thing.

[TubaingAgain]

I learned the hard way Save your money until you can buy a new quality NAME BRAND well known horn. Or even a good used quality horn. You will be much happier in the end. And not saying in 9 months or a year, like I did Damn I wish I waited and got the Miraphone