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Wasn't there one of these for sale at Baltimore Brass recently?

I had a Kruspe F here a couple of weeks ago for a little dent work. It is owned by a fellow near Cincinnatti who frequently posts here. I am not much on F tubas and this one did not seem extraordinary to me. Maybe the owner will chime in here.

I currently own the horn that Kilton Vinal Smith is holding in the picture. It's a very sweet sounding horn with the typical low register issues. This instrument was Kilton's main instrument throughout his career with the Boston Symphony.

Incidentally, the instrument in the other Boston Symphony picture is also a Kruspe F. I used to own that horn also, but sold it to a student a few years ago. Among Kilton's other instruments that I currently own are a six valve Courtois French tuba (used for the first performance of Bydlo!), an Alex F and a Schmidt F, both four valve. I find it amazing that all of the pre -1966 recordings of the Boston Symphony are being performed on F tuba!

Gary Ofenloch
Utah Symphony Orchestra
Boston Pops Esplanade Orchestra

the elephant wrote:

tuben wrote: ...

What you said, I view as being roughly analogous to accepting a CC tuba if the low G is not usable or requires a completely different embouchure than the notes on either side of it.

...

But Ele, don't you love it when you go to an audiition and hear guys with those horns warming up? You know that they spend hours and hours working on their "F chops" and all you have to do is take the horn out of the bag.

I was under the impression that KVS did not play this horn throughout his career with the BSO. He moved to tuba after having been in the bass trombone chair for some time... if memory serves as a source.

He was certainly able to cope with the shortcomings of his instrument, which were numerous.

I thnk that many of the manufacturers are working on the F tuba "trouble register." My little Cerveny F has the best low range of any F I've ever played, and FWIW, it has a more responsive low register than my old Miraphone 188. It's basically a point-and-shoot horn. Love it.

The firebird definitely has a low register.The sound in the mid and upper are not as satisfying as my B&S,but the low register is MUCH better.I do like the sound of the firebird.Just not as much as my B&S.I still want to try the Gronitz,which gets great revues for sound and low register(but not price ).I want to get to a place where I could keep my B&S for orchestra high stuff and get something with a low register for solos and maybe quintet.$$$$$$$$

It seems that manufacturers have been responding to the market, which has become increasingly populist, as more and more high school students enter the market, looking to buy their F tuba.

Question of the day: In the effort to improve intonation, and make the low register of new F tubas more user friendly, have the manufacturers been sacrificing the more intangible issue of interesting tone quality?

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:It seems that manufacturers have been responding to the market, which has become increasingly populist, as more and more high school students enter the market, looking to buy their F tuba.

Question of the day: In the effort to improve intonation, and make the low register of new F tubas more user friendly, have the manufacturers been sacrificing the more intangible issue of interesting tone quality?

I believe that as our field progresses, more and more players PERIOD are going for the bass/contrabass combination. In the old days, you could get by with just a contrabass, but the solo literature and general exposure of players to bass tubas is increasing.
It seemed as if not too long ago, most bachelor's degree programs focused strictly on contrabass, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
Are F tuba manufacturers sacrificing interesting tone quality for low range response and power? I think that depends on the manufacturer and personal taste. IMHO, there are manufacturers out there who's horns have always leaned toward "uninteresting" tone quality, but that's a matter of personal preference and taste.

I agree we are moving to the bass/contrabass combination, and yes there are many universities that require it, but there are many more that do not still. I can list several colleges in my home state, which do not require their students own an F, and some universities that do not even own an F tuba for the students to borrow. I think this due in part to the focus of the university.

As for the companies, it has been a matter of preference what sound or color you were looking for, but I almost wonder if there are fewer choices. I do think companies see the market, but I feel they have not caught up with the market

tubacrow wrote:I agree we are moving to the bass/contrabass combination, and yes there are many universities that require it...

Bass tuba is not required of incoming freshmen at any of the universities to which you refer, is it? If so, I guess I am really out of the loop!

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:Bass tuba is not required of incoming freshmen at any of the universities to which you refer, is it? If so, I guess I am really out of the loop!

Curtis requires a contrabass (C) and bass (Eb or F) tuba just to audition. See:

viewtopic.php?t=24843&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Z-Tuba Dude wrote:

tubacrow wrote:I agree we are moving to the bass/contrabass combination, and yes there are many universities that require it...

Bass tuba is not required of incoming freshmen at any of the universities to which you refer, is it? If so, I guess I am really out of the loop!

My statement was speaking to the fact that it is included in the curriculum of the many programs, not as an entrance requirement. I cannot speak to every college, but I can speak to the expectation for the ability to play F or Eb to enter a masters in performance program. IU would be an example of this.The requirement suggests that you are expected to learn the small horn prior to your masters

Studying bass during undergrad seems reasonable.

I was surprised to learn about Curtis' entrance requirement, though!

I've often told the story about the dent on my B&S. My mouthpiece fell out of my pocket, horn laying on the floor. How it hit exactly how it did I still can't figure out, but there's a nice rim-sized dent just on the inside arc of the outer tube, right next to the 5th valve. I freaked out at the time, but the low C range was instantly better. I emailed Bob Tucci a few years ago (long after the incident) and he suggested that there may be a nodal point right near there, just thrown off enough to make that range open up.

I tell any shop that touches the horn, if that dent is gone, I don't pay.

And, after playing it as much as I have, I don't have to worry about F tuba chops. My BBb is tiny, so it won't go for audition-level stuff anyway, but I have no problem going from horn to horn any more. I still feel much more comfortable on an F than anything though.

Bloke: the red-haired tubist is Bob Bryant. He attended U of Kentucky for undergrad, then got his Masters at U of Cincinnati. I have no idea how or where he is now or what he's up to. Maybe he looks at this site now and then? MONSTER player! Fine bassist as well, and a really great guy. I miss him.

The Kruspe F that Dan worked on is mine. I got it on EBay for a song. Yes, it has a very sweet sound, yes it has intonation problems, and yes, it has a big "donut hole." It is also extremely fragile - breathe wrong and it gets a new dent. It's my learner's permit F tuba. But since I'm already pretty comfortable on my Eb it's not getting any use. Glad I didn't pay very much for it.

jeopardymaster wrote: I have no idea how or where he is now or what he's up to.

http://www.asbury.edu/majors/music/faculty/Bob-Bryant

“donut holeâ€

tuben wrote: Well..... As someone who only ever liked playing F tuba for high/solo stuff I just always wonder why people get SO excited over the low c/low register of F tubas. (DAMN tuba, I can't bang out a low G on this piece of crap....)

I'm the first to admit I am not a professional, or even a regularly gigging player any more, but it seems to me each pitch tuba (F, Eb, CC, BBb) has its advantages and drawbacks.... Why expect a F tuba to respond like something else in a different register?

RC

I hear exactly what you're saying. An F tuba is an F tuba, not a CC or BBb, so we shouldn't expect it to sound and play like a big horn in the low range? Part of the beauty of using one is the difference in tone quality, etc. To me, it should be approached as a different horn. Just like a trumpet player - would a trumpet player expect his eb trumpet to play and sound like his bb or c trumpet? Ridiculous.
What should be expected, however, is that the entire required range of the instrument is playable. I believe that a lot of players want their F to play, sound and respond like a contrabass (especially those who are just learning F), and wind up fighting the horn in the low range. I've always found that the low range on a rotary F requires me to relax and hear the note clearly before trying to play it, much more so than on CC. You just can't force it. But then again, even then some horns are better than others.

I can plunk along pretty well on my Kruspe except for that stretch between F and C below the staff. The feel there is as if I'd stepped in a hole, hence the term. If I play the horn more regularly I think I could get used to it, but it is a little disconcerting to this old fart. I'll keep at it for a while longer. Doesn't happen to me on BBb, CC or Eb, though.

There was an old MW 6 valve F at U of Kentucky that I had to play as a Freshman. 'Pictures' was up. The Orchestra Director insisted that I use the F on Bydlo rather than a euph. That thing was horrid. Each note required an alternate fingering, it seemed. Very bad experience - maybe I never got over it, I dunno.

I had a dog once who was perfectly behaved, except with mail carriers and vacuum cleaners. Turned into Cerberus in the presence of either.

Thanks for the locator on Bob. Gonna try to look him up.

Sometimes the best solutions are the most simple...Anybody got a triple tuba bag for sale used?...