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I had an interesting discussion in one of my classes today. The professor (a bassoonist) brought up that there was some kid at Indiana who was majoring in baroque bassoon of all things. As an undergrad. I immediately began to think "is such specialization healthy, especially in today's competitive and over-staffed music world?"

I am a great believer in being as good at as many styles of music and instruments as you can be, for many reasons. For one, it makes you a better musician across the board. Secondly, it makes you more employable (unless I am missing something). Thirdly, you can have more interesting conversations at parties.

So my question for the jury of my peers, is what do you consider your musical philosophy for success? Generalizing your musical life or Specializing it?

adam0408 wrote:I had an interesting discussion in one of my classes today. The professor (a bassoonist) brought up that there was some kid at Indiana who was majoring in baroque bassoon of all things. As an undergrad.

Not just one kid...Indiana has an entire institute devoted to early music.

http://www.music.indiana.edu/som/emi/index.shtml

Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorate degrees are all offered, including a B.M. in Early Music (vocal or instrumental emphasis). I guess all the folks majoring in instrumental early music there are banking on a call from Christopher Hogwood? I have no idea why someone would delude themselves into thinking such a degree would lead to employment...on the other hand, I'm still trying to find a use for two music degrees, so I digress.

I think there might be something to be said for picking something small and being the best at it. It's similar to the tradeoff music majors can make in college: if you spend an absurd amount of your time practicing in hopes of getting a performing gig, you're liable to become less of a well-rounded musician as a whole, but if you spread yourself out and play many instruments and delve into many different disciplines within music, your odds of being paid to play your instrument professionally (in this case I mean as your primary occupation) dwindle from very unlikely to statistically negligible. I realize that being a well-rounded musician increases artistry, but if this kid wants to, for instance, play with an all-Baroque ensemble (something like Apollo's Fire comes to mind, though I have no idea whether they pay enough to live off of), why not apply the same idea of focus? Who knows, he may become the best baroque bassoonist who ever lived.


On the flip side, if he fails, I'm sure that McDonald's pays Baroque bassoonists just as well as more broadly trained ones.

TexTuba wrote: As for the first part, there's a sucker born every minute. To me, that degree has no more meaning than majoring in XBOX 360.

That's what business majors say about music majors, and, the fact is, they're right.

Also, I love how we're all college students who have yet to fail to get jobs or even try to do so who are discussing this.

Charlie Goodman wrote:Also, I love how we're all college students who have yet to fail to get jobs or even try to do so who are discussing this.

yeah. no kidding. talk about the blind leading the blind. Talking to a college prof who as far as I know never played in a professional sense doesn't do much good either.

tubashaman wrote:But in the long run, a baroque orchestra will pick the best bassoonist (or whatever) who sounds the best, who fits with the ensemble the best sound wise, ect ect ect

And what is no less important, fits the ensemble best style-wise - which is where the baroque specialisation comes in.

It seems to me that baroque orchestras and ensembles are growing ever more popular (at least in Europe, not sure about Texas) and since there seems to be a new baroque ensemble or two formed every year, it might even be easier to get a job there than in regular orchestras.

Anyway, if that chap in Indiana is interested enough in baroque to specialise, he should by all means. In the same way, I think that if someone is interested enough in jazz to imagine playing it almost exclusively, he should go for it.

The professor (a bassoonist) brought up that there was some kid at Indiana who was majoring in baroque bassoon of all things.

Reminds me of the joke: What do you call a jazz bassoonist with a pager?

An optimist


It's an old joke - probably should be brought up to date by replacing pager with mobile phone.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote: Not just one kid...Indiana has an entire institute devoted to early music.

http://www.music.indiana.edu/som/emi/index.shtml

Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorate degrees are all offered, including a B.M. in Early Music (vocal or instrumental emphasis). I guess all the folks majoring in instrumental early music there are banking on a call from Christopher Hogwood? I have no idea why someone would delude themselves into thinking such a degree would lead to employment...on the other hand, I'm still trying to find a use for two music degrees, so I digress.

I know quite a few baroque musicians who are doing quite nicely, but then I used to be a baroque hornplayer myself. Here in Europe the baroque gigs pay way, WAY better than the modern ones, and there's more than enough to play to pay the bills for quite a few musicians. (Most of my collegues here in Bruges who play baroque instruments have nicer cars and bigger houses than their modern instrument colleagues, although I hear from my U.S. colleagues things are not as rosy on your side of the Atlantic ) In our school we even have 10 year olds starting right away with harpsichord or traverso!

Don't forget baroque instruments are completely different beasts from their modern counterparts, and especially baroque woodwinds and strings demand a completly seperate technique which is sometimes at odds with their modern counterparts. You need total dedication if you want to earn a living playing them.
The difference in interpretation of the notes can sometimes be big as between jazz and classical, so you'd better be thoroughly acquainted with appoggiaturas, acciaccaturas, overdotting, inequality, the difference in national styles and the myriad of squiggles used to indicate all sorts of embellishments if you want to survive.

tubashaman wrote:ect ect ect

I am not a college student, so forgive me for posting in this exclusive thread. I have seen the above in other posts of your's, James. What does, "ect ect ect" mean? This isn't for text messaging, is it? Maybe I need to go back to college to learn how to communicate with some of you young guys.

TubaRay wrote:

tubashaman wrote:ect ect ect

I am not a college student, so forgive me for posting in this exclusive thread. I have seen the above in other posts of your's, James. What does, "ect ect ect" mean? This isn't for text messaging, is it? Maybe I need to go back to college to learn how to communicate with some of you young guys.

It's actually an expression of coughing up hairballs. If he had wanted to intensify, whether by slang or contraction, the phrase, "and so forth," he would have used the standard contraction derived from the Latin, "et cetera," which is commonly contracted to "etc." And then, to express the intensive, that would have been followed by one or more of the following or similar phrases, "ad nauseum," or "ad infinitum."

But you know, the psychological/physiological reaction of coughing up hairballs, "ect ect ect," is probably more descriptive, and, ironically, therefore accurate in this case.

I have run into the periodic saxophone major (not doubler, JUST sax) who refuses to play jazz or commercial music and wants to make a living ONLY playing "classical" saxophone. There was even one guy at MSM who felt that way his freshman year.

tubashaman wrote: But, remember, a general musician can win a gig in a baroque orchestra, ...

People, the study of baroque bassoon is not only a specialization into a certain niche style of playing, it's the study of a different instrument. Very few people can play both modern and baroque woodwinds to a high professional standard.

is such specialization healthy, especially in today's competitive and over-staffed music world?

You're looking at this the wrong way. If the music world is competitive and over-staffed, what are the advantages of being just another generalist?

I'm probably no more interested in the baroque basson than you, but I have great respect for someone that has chosen to study something that obscure. It means they're passionate about it. It also means they probably have the necessary skill-set (research skills, inquisitiveness, curiousity) that transfers to other professions. During my non-music, and somewhat technical career, I've come across folks that had music or liberal arts degrees working side by side with folks having graduate technical and engineering degrees.

Specialization is far more healthy if there is passion behind the study. What's unhealthy is a glut of generalists embarking on studies just for the money. But then, nobody's going to get rich as a music major anyway.

As for the first part, there's a sucker born every minute. To me, that degree has no more meaning than majoring in XBOX 360. This makes me wonder if I can major in bad tuba playing..

Unless I'm mistaken, the sheepskin will say Bachelor of Music, just like yours. Who's the sucker?

A few years ago someone gave me tickets to a performance of a Baroque group that came to town; the hall was PACKED and the crowd enthusiastic. We can't get those crowds for symphony performances.

And the most fascinating thing to me was that the overall quality of the playing (i.e., how "good" the players were, and I am a string player so I can tell..) was clearly below the quality of the players in our regional symphony. I'm not sure why people like Baroque music as much as they do, since I'm not overly fond of it, but ... there you go. Sometimes I think (and I'm NOT trying to insult anyone here) that the people who don't have a musical education just don't understand more modern music to the point where they can enjoy it. I myself reach that point with ultra-modern "music" that I classify as "organized noise," but maybe those same people react that way to, for example, Stravinsky. Huh.

MA

When musicians with only classical training try to play jazz, lovers of jazz think they sound appallingly bad. And, no good jazz band would want that player with them.

Similarly, a musician with only classical training (which is firmly rooted in 19th centtury traditions) plays Baroque music, it sounds appalling bad to the ears of people who know and love Baroque music. And, no good Baroque ensemble would want that player with them.

It's possible to be good at more than one style of music. But, don't think you can be good at any style without studying and practicing it a lot! Yes, you can pick up charts for any style and play it. I know; I've had my ears offended by lots of musicians who have done so. So, don't count on playing outside of what you have studied a lot unless you are only going to play for audiences who don't know any better.

Allen wrote:When musicians with only classical training try to play jazz, lovers of jazz think they sound appallingly bad. And, no good jazz band would want that player with them.

Similarly, a musician with only classical training (which is firmly rooted in 19th centtury traditions) plays Baroque music, it sounds appalling bad to the ears of people who know and love Baroque music. And, no good Baroque ensemble would want that player with them.

I normally have Otto's Baroque Music streaming at work. Not too distracting, nice background music. Mixed in with the Hogwood, Freiburger or Koeln they have the occasional Academy of St. Martins in the Fields or I Musici recording. Although these are excelent groups with extremely good musicians I always cringe and hit the mute button when they come on. It's like listening to Shakespeare recited by some famous French actor, phonetically pronouncing the words.