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I have a question that may be able to be answered here. Every time I see one of the Army recruiting adds on television, I listen to the music in the background and say to myself "my, that horn player is pretty good - I wonder if he is from one of the bands?"

We have all these world class musicians, that serve our country and we, the people, pay their salaries with our tax dollars - no problem. When a recruiting commercial is developed, are these the same people recording the background music? Or are my tax dollars paying one set of great musicians to perform live concerts at various celebrations, and I'm also paying the way for a studio musician somewhere in the country?

In my little world I would like to think that our great military musicians are playing for these recruiting efforts, but somehow I don''t think they are.

Can anyone give me a definitive answer?

Just curious.
Roger

Don't know, but living in the DC/Baltimore area one gets used to (as a freelancer) civilian playing gigs being taken by military players all the time. There is a law that says they're not supposed to take civilian gigs, but no one has ever enforced it and no one ever will.

Why?

Partly because they are amongst the best players in the area, partly because egalitarianism=socialism to most people, but mostly because the guy who opens his mouth loud enough about this is bound to not be called anymore for the existing freelance work.

As it exists, I don't blame military players for taking civilian work, but why have that pesky little law if it's not going to be enforced?

Phil Taylor

Could you cite that law, please?

Mojo workin' wrote:There is a law that says they're not supposed to take civilian gigs, but no one has ever enforced it and no one ever will.

Dean wrote:Could you cite that law, please?

He can't, because there is no such law. How could there be a law telling someone hiring a group for their wedding reception that they can't hire a player who happens to be in the military? Ridiculous.

Oh, yeah, someone better tell all the guys in the DC bands who teach at local universities they'd better stop immediately...no "civilian gigs" and all. There's going to be some disappointed students...

The current theme "Army Strong" was composed my Mark Isham, the great trumpeteer and film composer. Check out his score for the film Bobby, very moving.

The ads were shot during 14 days of casting calls and in-person interviews with hundreds of Soldiers at Fort Riley, Kan,; Fort Lewis, Wash.; and Camp Pendleton, Ca. Soldiers appearing in the ads were chosen to best represent the careers, skills, experiences and cultural diversity that comprises today's Army.

The original musical score in the ads includes undertones from the 29-member Soldiers Chorus of the U.S. Army Field Band.

the elephant wrote:Camp Pendleton? That is a United States Marine Corps installation. Either they are in error about this, they interviewed Marines for an Army commercial, or the government is now hiding soldiers on a Marine base.

So, what exactly is up with that bit of information?

(BTW - I was born at the Naval hospital on Camp Pendleton, if anyone really cares.)

Sure, we all care where you were born, I just can't quite figure out why! But Liberty Mo is just quoting from the Army's own web site-

http://www.army.mil/-news/2006/11/09/56 ... my-strong/

So if the facts are in error, tell it to the Army. If they will listen. When I was in the Army way back in 1971 listening wasn't their most well developed skill.

Bill Anderson

Scott Cameron (he of the Army Field Band) is something of a regular here and can definitely verify their participation if he sees this thread.

So, everybody still maintaining that no such law exists?

That's the consensus, until someone cites such a law.



Laws are written down, they aren't simply conveyed by word-of-mouth.

Mojo workin' wrote:So, everybody still maintaining that no such law exists?

Yep...I want to know how so many players in the DC bands also have teaching gigs. Or how any lawmaking agency can tell me that I can't hire a couple of navy band guys to play jazz at my reception. Please cite your source, so that we can all learn something.

I don't believe there is "law" per se regarding military musicians participating in civilian music jobs. What that original poster may be citing is that a military performing group (ie. Army Band Brass Quintet, Navy Band Commodores, etc...) cannot take work away that could be hired out as a civilian function. The whole point is for the military bands, AS A GROUP, to not be utilized, and therefore take work away from the freelancing musicians. Individual military musicians can freelance of there own accord provided they are on liberty or leave, and are not using government equipment for the gigs. That is the way I understood the Navy regs when they were taught to us in a recent Navy Band training session.[/b]

Tony Halloin wrote:What that original poster may be citing is that a military performing group cannot take work away that could be hired out as a civilian function.

Mojo workin', earlier in the thread wrote:living in the DC/Baltimore area one gets used to (as a freelancer) civilian playing gigs being taken by military players all the time.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it doesn't sound like Mojo is talking about group gigs to me.

I don't even understand the group problem...aren't the Airmen of Note (for example) often featured at jazz festivals? Wouldn't that be "taking a gig away" from some other civilian group who would have otherwise received a paycheck? What gives?

I was a military bandsman 1960-1961 at Fort Lewis WA. Three nights a week at the Officers Club , I played trumpet in a tea dance orchestra made up of soldier bandsmen. The dance orchestra wore non-military clothing and did not represent itself as a military unit (although the post commander knew who we were). The musicians union in nearby Tacoma wanted the job for their own civilian members. I'm not clear on whether we violated any laws or military regulations. All I know is that to a young soldier, the extra money was a welcome thing indeed. The dance orchestra was paid in cash and the amount far exceeded what we earned as soldiers.

From what I know, When the Airmen of Note play at a festival they are usually invited by the festival hosts to perform. A plus for the host is that they do'nt have to pay the Airmen of Note, thus enabling them (the Host) to use the money else where to bring people in to see the festival.

Also,
I know the year that the AF started the "cross into the blue" slogan they used USAF Band musicians. I was the tuba player in the soundtrack on one of the commercials. Flew a bunch of us down and did the studio work in Austin, Texas in a course of 3-4 days.

the elephant wrote:Camp Pendleton? That is a United States Marine Corps installation. Either they are in error about this, they interviewed Marines for an Army commercial, or the government is now hiding soldiers on a Marine base.

So, what exactly is up with that bit of information?

(BTW - I was born at the Naval hospital on Camp Pendleton, if anyone really cares.)

I got it directly from the US Army website....ask them.

However, as with any major military installation, all branches of service have some presence. I underwent urban counter-terroism training there in fall of 2005 along with several other federal agents from various branches of government, and saw Air Force and Army personnel.

Okay, this could lead to more questions than answers. It isn't easy reading, either, and I don't pretend to be all-knowing about this stuff. I'll give you the links, and can tell you about my perception of the current interpretation of this information. Sound vague? It is. I'm not sure I get it, and I've been in the Corps for 17 years. (More geezer alerts. Damn.)

There is language in the United States Code, some of it dating back to the 1950's, I believe, prohibiting military musicians from being in competition with civilian musicians. References to those entries in the U.S.C. are made in this Joint Ethics Regulations document, DoD 5500.7-R.
Word document

The substantive text of this document occurs in two places. Section 3-304: Note the wording "very restricted" in that section. More importantly, near the beginning of the document, in section 1-101: So if you're thinking there's a "law" against anything being implied by this document, fuhgeddaboutit.

The current interpretation of these Joint Ethics Regulations as it pertains to military musicians can be derived from this DoD directive, which was authored in 2001 and certified current as of May, 2007.
PDF document

(At this point, I'm dodging laundry duty, but I'm gonna finish this post anyway. It's all about you guys.)

This directive is concerned mostly with the use of military music groups at non-DoD events, which includes everything from an entire concert band to a single musician. Pertinent subparagraphs include 4.2.17.1, 4.2.17.2, and most of 4.8.3 through 4.8.5. One of the offshoots of this thread that Todd and runelk touched on, a group like the Airmen Of Note appearing at a festival, is addressed directly in subparagraph 4.2.17.2: So when the USMB tuba quartet showed up at Falcone with Ryan McGeorge's jazz arrangements, that was legit.

As far as individuals freelancing, what we play on our off-duty hours is our own business. This wasn't always so. Back in the day, military musicians couldn't join the AFM, and the AFM didn't want them. Playing gigs around D.C. was much more, ah, interesting back then. Military guys used to use fake names, wear wigs, do all sorts of crazy crap to play gigs on the outside. It wasn't a good scene until a Marine Band piano player, Tom Lee, bagan making changes for the better. If his name sounds familiar, it's because he's the International President of the AFM. His bio is at the top of the page:
AFM website

Today, most everyone in the military bands freelances or teaches to supplement their income and/or expand their musical experiences. If we appear somewhere in uniform, we don't get paid, whether we're playing or teaching. We never use government-owned instruments on a civilian gig. If we're tasked with a duty job at the last minute, we back out of any civilian gig, no matter what it is. The local contractors all know this. There's a lot of musicians in D.C., so their sub lists are long. Some contractors don't want to deal with that, and don't hire military guys often, or ever. That's their choice, and there's plenty of ex-military civilian musicians in town with top-level chops. Some of the top call guys in town were never in any service bands.

I play in the Marine Band. I'm a member of the AFM. I freelance as much as I can. I haven't been arrested or court-martialed. Yet. I'm going to fold the boys' clean shirts now, because my wife keeps looking over here, and trying to comprehend DoD documents makes the laundry look pretty damn appealing.

This post is too long.

Well,
1st off it's an orchestra, which would make me think that that it's not an Army group or soloist. Unless that it's The U.S. Army Orchestra, but there is nothing about them recording on their site:
http://www.armybandstand.com/strings/th ... estra.html

It's a pretty swift kick in the teeth to all the bandsman out there to use an orchestra.

Bill

10 USC 3634 Army band: may not be paid for performance outside Army post

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/searc ... -000-.html
===============
32 CFR § 508.1 Utilization of Army bands

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... .7&idno=32
=================
Joint Ethics Regulation (JER)

3-304 Competition with Civilian Musicians. Members of military bands are very restricted in the degree to which they may compete off base with civilian musicians. See 10 U.S.C. 3634, 6223 and 8634 (reference (f)).
http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/defense_ethics ... jer1-6.doc

Please cite your source, so that we can all learn something

I believe Dean E has in his post. Would you like to learn anything else, Todd Malicoate?

no Army band or member thereof may receive remuneration for furnishing music outside the limits of an Army post in competition with local civilian musicians.

Has a nice ring to it, no?