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Luckily, tubists sit in the back row!

tuben wrote:

windshieldbug wrote:Luckily, tubists sit in the back row!

Yeah.... Right in front of the cavemen....
RC

... and I thought those were just looters of Galt's Gulch that banged on those mostly round things!

The solution is to have the federal government step in and manage the pipe organ industry.

The real solution is for these stubborn traditionalists to finally admit the superiority of the digital electronic organ which requires no tuning and has a volume control. HA!!

And sitting in front of the "caveman section" does present its noise level. But the biggest problem is you can't hear the rest of the band -- sometimes not even myself.

tubashaman wrote:She was real respectful and asked the director (who is her bassoon teacher) if they could turn the speakers down or face them the other way because it was severly hurting her ears. He just said too bad.

You're kidding, right? He said "too bad"?

I was wondering when this thread would turn into a machismo display, but I didn't expect it from a college band director.

"Yes, but OURS go to 11... "

windshieldbug wrote:"Yes, but OURS go to 11... "

How'd you get a picture of my tuba?!

I have read the Doug Yeo article. and the man writes with great sense, even though he is a trombonist. Why would anyone want to play with such a volume that it actually does harm to fellow musicians?

windshieldbug wrote:"Yes, but OURS go to 11... "

Why not just make ten louder?

tuben wrote:

tubashaman wrote:I dont think there was ever anyone named Don Hanna at ACU.

Ever? Or just during your tenure?

RC

Don Hanna was Director of Bands at Hardin-Simmons University until 2002 or so...nice man, we had him here in Stillwater a couple of times as a judge for state contest.

That being said, it would be best if the name of the current Director of Bands at ACU (you can find out for yourself with a little search, if you want) is not mentioned here. It only takes one little google search of his name and presto - he's directed to this website and this thread for some interesting reading.

I shocked reading the article and not seeing once the fact of tuning. It seems that it might be a little difficult to keep in tune (by listening) through ear plugs. I'm guessing that they assume we play by pushing buttons (hmm must have been talking to my high schools choral director )

When playing bass trombone in a big band, I usually put an earplug in my right ear (the one that's in the trumpet players' line of fire) and I found it a great aid to my intonation - especially when I was learning to operate the chain saw - as I could hear my buzz better. I did feel a bit strange for the first couple of times but I got used to it.

The other day, I played a few concerts that started with Fanfare for the Common Man, and since I stood in front of the timpani and bass drum, it was a question of plugging the ears or damaging them. The trombone players also plugged their ears and we didn't have a problem with intonation at all - then again, we all used the same type of earplugs...

If a director told me "too bad," I would just walk out. There's no reason to take the issue further. He obviously showed a lack of respect for her, and that is uncalled for from a college professor. It works two ways, and it's downright horrible that some professors believe they should be looking down on their students like this.

There were similar problems with my band director in college. He would waste valuable time chewing me out for cracking a note at a rehearsal. Didn't matter that this was the sixth straight hour that I had been playing for his ensembles, and that my stomach was growling almost as loud as I was playing. Or calling me into his office because I was practicing in A PRACTICE ROOM while an art professor was teaching a class down the hall and was complaining about the noise leaking into the room, and that I need to schedule my practice time around surrounding classes (yeah, right). I should have walked out during such things. Eventually, my body language showed that I didn't appreciate the treatment while I was being polite. He stopped talking to me, except to tell me when my euphonium playing wasn't blending into the trombone section enough, even on solos ("Nick, I know that Colonial Song says "solo" on your part, but it's really not. It's actually a trumpet solo; Percy [he was always on a first name basis with composers] made it a little confusing. It might be better that your part wasn't played").

As to the hearing situation, this is demeaning to force musicians to do this for their own good. It should be something that's considered a known risk to musicians. Even if it is a paradoxic situation for us. It's like the government taking candy bars off the shelves because although they are enjoyable, they do more harm than good. If that happened, there would be a much larger stir. Oh, I know! I think the color green is bad for the eyes, so we need to make painters stop using that, as well.

This could be the result of the years of string players complaining about sitting in front of brass bells. And that's why there's those plexi sound shields between the winds and strings now. But to deny an entire color from the musical palette should NOT be accepted. That would sound very anti climactic to crescendo up to a mezzo forte or barely a forte, or worse yet, to have to cut many of the louder pieces (goodbye, Wagner) like what happened in the article.

Besides, there's something very awesome about the "balls to the wall" sound of great big bands.

Nick

My audiologist/musician wife reports that 100db on piccolo and 100db tuba will produce the same sound pressure level on a meter. It is sound pressure levels not frequency that contribute to hearing loss.

Exposure + Time = Hearing loss

Randy

tuben wrote:But why is it then that what I personally believe is the world's finest orchestra, Vienna Philharmonic, does NOT use any sort of sonic shields and still blows the walls down?

Have you listened to them in an A-B comparison with other orchestras? Are you sure they actually play louder as a group?

The gist of Doug Yeo's article is loudness inflation. It's not that it's loud. It's that it's getting louder and louder, and the reason is because musicians value being able to play louder. Maybe they even revere it.

I bet Vienna sounds loud because they know how to play soft, and so they still have a tremendous dynamic range. Also, how big is their hall? I have this feeling it's old and not so big.

And I don't confuse a rich sound with a loud sound. Vienna's sound is rich and vibrant and full of energy. But that may not be the same as the transients and harmonics that cause ear damage.

Yeo talks about how trombonists have gone to bigger and bigger equipment, expressly for the purpose of playing louder. They are trying to keep up with trumpet players, who I'm sure won't be satisfied until their trumpets are hollowed out from 200-pounds blocks of brass.

I suspect one reason for loudness inflation is that orchestra audiences and musicians alike get their reference from listening to recorded music in loud ambient conditions. Everything is louder these days, and orchestras seem to be competing against higher noise levels by playing louder.

And tuba players aren't using the Jacobs model of using a big tuba to make a wide dynamic range easier; they are see how far they can push the size of the instrument into louder listening levels. A stroll through the Elephant Room provides all the necessary evidence. Can this tuba I'm trying out play the Ride loudly enough to make me the King Elephant (no relation to Wade)?

Another factor is that we are all getting older. When music is too loud now, my ears distort in ways they did not used to. It's exactly the sound made by an overdriven audio amplifier--the waveforms are being clipped. I can't wire a broadbanded resistor into my ear to attenuate the signal. Ear plugs are NOT broadbanded and make it nearly impossible for me to tell how my sound fits in the ensemble. But my ability to tolerate cymbals and snare drums four feet from the back of my head gets less every year. I can well understand why 50 or 60-year old pros are concerned, and trying to shave off some of the intensity of the sound hitting them.

Our conductor tells us all the time that our louds are too loud, and softer fortissimos would have more impact if our pianissimos really were. He's talking to amateurs, and I wonder what the response would be if a major conductor said it to a bunch of high-end pros. Would they listen?

Rick "no longer feeling indestructible" Denney

I've never heard of any concrete data that shows that there is "loudness inflation" in professional orchestras. I'm not saying that it is not occuring, but is it possible that this whole "loudness inflation" is overblown (ha ha)? Often those who I've heard complain of things getting louder and louder over the course of their careers are people who freely admit that their own musical taste as it relates to volume has changed. As they've gotten older they like louder volumes less and less. It's possible that the perception of things getting louder is due at least in part to changes in one's personal taste. Admittedly, I don't have data for this either.

People's musical taste changes in other ways such as tempi - often more seasoned players have very different tastes in tempos than when they were less experienced.

joebob wrote:I've never heard of any concrete data that shows that there is "loudness inflation" in professional orchestras.

So, you don't think that trombones will be getting louder if they move from .5" bores and 8" bells to .525" bores and 9" bells? And the bass trombone moving from .525" bore and 9" bell to .6" bore (in some cases) and 11" bells? It used to be that a 6-1/2AL was a large mouthpiece for a tenor trombone. Now, it's small. It used to be that a 3G was a standard bass trombone mouthpiece. Now, it's a 1G, or a shallow tuba mouthpiece. Trombone players are removing the venturis from the mouthpipes, too. These are the things Doug Yeo is using as evidence, on the assumption that the reason behind these trends is the desire to play louder. It would be hard to imagine what the reason might be if not that.

And about the desire of younger players to play louder, I have no doubt. I hear what they say, what they write here, and what they do when they try new horns at conferences.

There are orchestras that are subtly amplifying and reinforcing their sound with electronic sound reinforcement systems. Getting louder, at least for some sections, is the only possible motivation there.

The notion that orchestras are trying to play louder in competition with the generally louder common experience of most people is my guess. But as to the simple notion that orchestras are louder, I can only say this: If they aren't, then I see a lot of wasted efforts on the part of their musicians. Because many of those musicians sure seem to be trying to play louder.

Rick "who played two of Bill Bell's Kings this evening, comparing them with big tubas--they aren't as loud" Denney

http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er20.aspx

I use these all the time, often just in one ear (whichever side the trumpets are on with one ensemble.)
They are virtually invisible to all those around you.

tuben wrote:
Truth is higher pitches contain more energy and therefore are more prone to cause damage. 100dB on a piccolo is more damaging than 100dB on tuba.

RC

What about 100 mph on the tuba vs. the piccolo? Now you have something!