TubeNet

I've heard a few here and there from lead trumpets in live performances. I wonder about this too -- for the section, is it like a "Kangaroo Court" with baseball players?

You can be assured that every note you note you play is recorded, for broadcast or archival purposes, and if it is noticeable to any extent, then you're in the wrong business.

(it's the same thing as asking a pro football player, "Do you drop balls much?" - maybe, but not often!)

Impossible question to answer...every player is different...every concert is different...every gig is different...every professional situation is different...every conductor is different in their approach.

As I said in another thread where you said something like "miss a note/entrance and your career is over" (it turned into Reagan playing tubas )...

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:the truly gifted players can miss a note and you won't even care. If missing a note or entrance were fatal to an orchestral job, no one would have one for very long. This is a common misconception among starry-eyed music majors. There was only one person to walk this earth who was perfect; and, as far as I know, He didn't play the tuba.

Yelled at?

I'm sure if one "cracked a few notes" in a professional setting, one wouldn't be yelled at. One, quite possibly, would be shown the door.

Bigger picture? If you're not yelling at yourself for cracking just one note, then you need to reevaluate what you're doing, especially if you want a gig. (Like you mentioned in one of your other posts.)

Mistakes happen. People kack notes. But, IMHO, people who kack notes all the time don't just have "mistakes", they have problems.

But hey, what do I know?

-Kevin

Patrick Sheridan makes an interesting point in his master classes.

An amateur who makes a mistake has made a BIG mistake - he's screwed up one of the relatively few performances in his career. It's a BIG deal.

When he makes a mistake, he says "I get another shot at it tomorrow". Not a big deal.

Of course, he plays a LOT of notes and makes very few mistakes. By definition, he has a very low percentage of mistakes. The amateur doesn't play nearly as many notes, so every mistake is a much larger percentage of his total output.

And finally....the amateur is playing "notes" - so every error is a failure. Pat is playing "music" - which often happens in spite of the odd bad note. If the music works, who cares about the notes.

This is, of course, wildly at odds with the attitude shown by pros who consider themselves "note machines" first, last, and always.

It looks like there's a U-shaped curve at work here. At either end, there's considerable tolerance for cracked notes. In the middle, it's "letter perfect...or you don't get called back".

tubashaman wrote:So, (no joke) i think our concert had over 1500 tuba notes, because the copland we play 200 measures on every beat or more.....and same with Niagara falls. So are you saying since im in college i will have more chances.

So if I dont get the best/cleanest perfect Arnold Jacobs like attack I can try again, i only missed about 12 that werent perfect to my standard, so thats about 98% at least.....

And i try to make music......some on here that have heard my recordings will probably disagree and are laughing about my poor playing

You got the "best/cleanest perfect Arnold Jacobs-like attack" on 1488 of 1500 notes? Or is "your standard" less than that? If so, why?

I'm at a loss, and not sure what it is you want to hear. All pros miss notes, whether you want to believe that or not. No pros play a perfect concert, ever (well, at least those concerts where they play more than just a little bit)...if they think they do, then their standards are too low. Pros will always tell you something they could have done better. Amateurs worry about percentages.

Disagreements? I'd love to hear from any pro with the stones to say they never "miss notes."

Listen to the famous CBS Great Performances Mahler 1 with Bruno Walter. Tubist has an "issue" on the 2nd high A in the solo.

It happens.

But as previously stated, human moments from pros are much fewer and further between than from us mere mortals.

tubashaman wrote:
Id like a recording of a bigname pro fracking a note

How many takes did it take, and how many hours of mastering by the producers did it take to get that recording frack free??? And, if you listen very, very closely, I'm sure you can still hear small mistakes still being made.

It's called the human factor, no one is perfect all the time. It's what make the arts special, a chipped note in a performance, and uneven brush stroke on a canvas, a slight blemish on an otherwise perfect ceramic. This is what makes art well art. It is what seperates artists from machines, and it is what makes us human.

I personally think it is refreshing to have slight blemishes in the arts, it makes the individual piece, performance etc. "special"(I'm going to get flamed for this) This however does not in any way justify making mistakes. As artists we must be hardest on ourselves, we always want to be continuously raising our own personal bars, striving to create that one perfect piece of art and creating many, many other great works in the process.

The arts are one of the bases of humanity, our ability to appreciate them is one of the foundational principles that seperate humans from other creatures. Strive to find the beauty in everything and it wil make you a better person in the long run.

We all make mistakes in live performance and kick ourselves when we do.

However that is the nature of it - just work to minimize those split notes, or other mistakes.

Experience and confidence surely helps. If you are worrying about hitting a note, my experience is you are more likely to mess it up.

tubashaman wrote:Id like a recording of a bigname pro fracking a note

Why?

It shouldn't be that difficult though. Just find a live recording and listen very closely. Personally, I much prefer listening for music than chipped notes or bad intonation.

Recordings are very different from live performances. Recordings are made to be perfect because they can be. Don't compare the two. It is a mistake of youth to do so. Listen to anyone long enough and you will hear mistakes.


Being a pro doesn't mean you are or "have to be" flawless. Some reputable players do make very very few mistakes, and some others make more. The only thing that matters is that they are worth listening to. *** Todd says, when you hear a great player make mistakes, you really won't care.


If all you require from a performance is a 0% frack rate, just listen to MIDI and you'll be happy!

Sometimes, its not missing the note that gets the bad reputation or worse, its the reaction that the musician chooses to exhibit.

Some of the most innocent splits are magnified by the facial expression, arm flailing, or other act. This in turn accracts more attention to the mistake than the original act.

Sometimes, this includes how much you talk about it afterwards.

This may appear to be a stab at the original poster, but it is not. I do understand the desire to play a perfect concert, and I feel for those who are in pressure situations that encounter the recorded split, missed entrance, or other incident. I tell students that if you mess up, go on and do your best to complete the task without further incident.

Tom Mason

Always interesting to consider what it is that makes a pro a pro.
one (slightly cynical) view is that a professional is someone who does something for money that the rest of us do for free.
I am not a professional musician, but I do have professional qualifications in other areas, does it stop me making errors? certainly not. why should it be different musicians? At least no one comes to any serious harm from a wrong note.
Another interesting question is this..why do you think that most professionals (like doctors, lawyers architects &c) call what they do "practice"?

If you really want to hear a real professional frack a few notes, buy/listen to Barton Cummings recording "Retrospective." He's tremendously musical, and he had the guts to present this CD unedited. Kudos!

FWIW, my mentor once told me that 99% of the time, the only one who really noticed that you missed a note or made a mistake is you. Don't give it away to whomever is listening by your facial expression, etc. Play it like you mean it, own it, and don't make the mistake again.

Also, it is really important that you understand the difference between a studio recording and a live performance. Yes, we are all human, pro or not. My brother is a recording engineer at a major studio. He's recorded my playing a couple of times, and with ProTools he can make things 100% perfect if he has enough time to do it. Fracked notes, dynamics, pitch "variance," etc can all be fixed in the studio. Note perfect. The problem is that life isn't like that. It's no substitute for the real communication that goes on in a live performance between the audience and the performer(s). If you're communicating something and the audience is "getting" what you're trying to say, they will easily forgive small mistakes (if they even notice them).

Legend is that when Dizzy Gillespie would play a "wrong" note while flying a kite, he'd play it again, louder, then make up everything else to match so it sounded like he meant it that way, and by the end of the ride he did.

Of course, playing off the page doesn't usually allow that sort of "flexibility."

Events eventuate. The key is to not overreact, which will cause a person to lose focus, air support, and confidence. Keeping at it, then afterwards hitting the practice properly for the next concert is the thing to do.

I can tell you I have a few missed notes here and there in the LW TV special I got to record. They're there for all of posterity, airing every couple of years on PBS. But I went right on through them without any change of expression or jerking my hand to the right fret or any of that, to the end that they are not noticable. A visible wince on camera, however, would not have been acceptable.

Let's not be too harsh on James here.I sometimes think back to college and how much I thought I knew and how little I really knew about anything.But what I did have was enthusiasm in large supply(still have a decent amount even now).I've learned alot more from my spectacular screw-ups than from just answered questions.I think this is a valid subject,especially from someone with no pro experience.Respectful inquiry is ok with me...


Mike" cacked a few myself" Mason...

Listen to anyone long enough and you will hear mistakes.

"split happens"

Dean wrote:*** Todd says, when you hear a great player make mistakes, you really won't care.

Is that my new TubeNet designation?

tubashaman wrote:Id like a recording of a bigname pro fracking a note

Those are relatively few and far between.
HOWEVER,
A live (in person or on TV) concert will yield different results. I remember hearing "superman" completely obliterate a note one time on a live-for-tv performance. When you are giving 110% all of the time, that is bound to happen.
P.S. Ever been to a live Canadian Brass concert?

I remember hearing a story about the Dennis Braim, the legendary horn player of the Philharmonia back in the 1950's. As you know horns are more prone to split notes than tubas, but he never split a note, he was so good.

One day in rehearsal he actually split a note. Herbert Von Karajan who was conducting said; "Good, you are human after all"!