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yalequan wrote:SO...... Would air support be a factor in the intonation of my horn?

Quick answer: yes. Air support is THE most important factor in playing your horn. It effects tuning, articulation, rhythm, really every aspect of playing your horn is effected by it.

When I was teaching, I operated under the premise that 80-90% of the problems my students were having were air-related. Most of the time I was right. If I personally am having an issue, the first thing I do is go back and make sure my air is doing what it's supposed to do.

Too often I see teachers start futzing with embouchure or equipment or so forth to fix a problem, when the problem is an air issue all along that nothing will fix except fixing the air issue.

FWIW, the times I have played a 3050, I found it to be somewhat more of an air-hog than a lot of other horns. It's a big horn, so you can't blow it like a small one. At 5-10, 250 you're a bit bigger than me. IIRC, Sam Pilafian ain't a real big guy, but had some pretty good success on some big horns. Ditto Carol Jantsche (except she ain't a real big gal...). So you're plenty big enough to handle a Willson. A. Jacobs didn't have a huge vital capacity, but he was certainly able to make the king of the Big Daddies sound like butta.

Now, all of that isn't to say that a mouthpiece change or a small embouchure adjustment won't help. Just make sure you're blowing the thing right before you spend a bunch of $$$$ chasing the ultimate mouthpiece or messing with your chops.

I find the 3100's better overall than the 3050. To me they're more in tune...I can play just as high on it as I can on the CC version..To me the 3100 just "feels" better to play

yalequan wrote: I'm pretty sure I'm blowing the thing right, it makes noise but honestly I don't really know how to tell if I'm blowing right.

Well, if you can play the 188 in tune with a nice, relaxed embouchure, you should be able to play the Willson with that same embouchure. If you are blowing the thing right, you should be able to produce an absolutely gorgeous, in-tune sound with minimal embouchure gymnastics.

You'll find that all horns have a "sweet spot." And every note on the horn has a "sweet spot." When you hit the sweet spot, it's in tune with a great tone and there is a minimum effort involved to produce those results.

There's a ton of great information here:

http://www.windsongpress.com/almost%20l ... 20live.htm

Did the pros that tried your horn use your mpc or theirs?

What kind of horn did you play before the Willson?

A pet peeve of mine is blaming the instrument for bad intonation. Yes, some horns play out of tune. Mine for instance plays top space G 30+ cents sharp! So, I play it 1-2 and it is glorious!

Don't blame the horn... if you're not putting the "correct" pitch of the buzz into the mouthpiece, it will never be in tune. The tuba, after all is just an amplifier for what we buzz into it.

A few things you can do:

Sit at the piano WITH A TUNER (or make sure the piano is decently in tune) and buzz long tones to match pitches. Get a good sound, and use lots of support... but don't force. When you really start to hear the pitches, your intonation will improve. Do this daily... it makes a great warm up. Cover several octaves.. add resistance if you need in the lower register (I know I do!). I can almost guarantee your pitch will improve. It takes discipline to do this, as it's quite humbling at times.

In addition, play long tones with the tuner. When I say with the tuner, don't play so that you're moving the needle around, fishing for pitch. Close your eyes, play the note and then look to see where it lies. All too often, students bend the pitch around to match the tuner. That's not helping at all! Play the note where it speaks best... its "Slot". (Sometimes this is not ALWAYS in tune...find a better combination of fingerings or lip it AFTER you've figured out where it is in tune)

Another tool I like is Steven Colley's TuneUP intonation training system. It's a play along cd-drone type thing. Works in all keys, and has really helped me to hear intervalic tuning (Which I feel as tubists is the most important, as we are often the focal point of tuning in ensembles)

Good pitch is mostly in the ear of the player. If you can't hear the note in tune, you're not going to play in tune. The tuba is only an amplifier.. not an intonation machine.

***After re-reading, I got off topic. Air Support is paramount to the success of intonation and a good sound. It's tremendously difficult to play in tune if you don't have a supported sound. Don't blame the horn. Use Air..hear pitches...***

Simple... Right??


I do hope that my suggestions help you. Now... I'm off to practice what I preach at the piano.

to check on these horns is the main slide. They are built in Switzerland, where the horns are built to the standard European pitch that can run from A442 to A445. Most manufacturers have a longer main slide for their instruments that are exported, specifying that they are designed to play at A440.

You just might have a European main slide on that horn. I have seen this with the Willsons in the past on a couple of instruments. I have also seen two 3050 Willsons side by side against a grid wall and the mouthpiece receivers were off by about an inch and a half in their positioning on the bell.

Just an observation.

Peace.
Roger

what he said.
Roger

One of the oddest, yet perhaps best advice I've had, was a question: "Can you sing at the top of your lungs absolutely on pitch?"
Hard on housemates, but a true delineating mark between whether the problem is you or your equipment.

It's your tool.

If you like the way it sounds, it's response, and general intonation otherwise, are convinced that your chops are relaxed and right, it doesn't matter how it plays for anyone else, or why.

Make it work for you. If that means lengthening the slide, take the cue from the shoes; just do it.

My MiraFone 184 has always played on the sharp side. My chops are fine on my other horns, and I have no idea why a horn built for the US might have Euro tuning, but there it is: I am always at the end of the slide.

These are tools; make it work for YOU.

20 cents, we're talking about 3/4 of an inch on each side of the slide, adding 1 1/2 inches total. This should be more than sufficient without getting the slide too low and interfering with the stand,chair, etc.

Just an observation.

Peace.
Roger

Well...I'm clearly not one of the high level players here. But....if the equipment isn't working for you and you know of equipment that does work for you (i.e., what you said about the 188)...why fiddle with trying to make a bad match a good match? Just switch.

MA

PS to bloke: the tendency to focal dystonia is genetic; people end up losing their careers because when it first starts to manifest, knowledge of how to avoid it getting worse is lacking, and people do the wrong thing (try to fix it with more concentrated practice, which makes it worse.) I've nearly overcome mine, but it took two years and the process is not yet complete although I'm back to a good 80% of where I was. Wouldn't be good enough for a pro but I'm not a pro; also I had to figure it out for myself and everything would have gone a whole lot faster if I had had knowledgable help. If anyone is interested in what I've learned in how to overcome dystonia, PM me and I'll point you to my blog where I have some articles about it.

Roger and Joe (bloke) have made excellent suggestions. I had the same problem (with a MW 32), and it was solved by getting what the manufacturer called the "long" main tuning slide instead of the "regular" one.

Since my day job is engineering, I took an engineer's approach. First, I determined the resonant frequencies of the tuba: Set up your tuner, then close your eyes. Play an open note and use your chops to bend the pitch up and down until you feel the pitch that has the most resonance. Now, open your eyes and look at the tuner. Now, you know the pitch of the instrument itself. Repeat for other open notes. If the open notes give you consistently sharp of flat readings, you now know that the instrument itself is sharp or flat. [You may want to repeat this with alternate mouthpieces.]

After I determined that my tuba itself was sharp (even with the main slide all the way out), I did an experiment. I set my tuner to the common European pitch of A=443 and retuned my tuba. Now, it was well in tune with itself and with A=443. After my new "long" main tuning slide arrived, I tuned the tuba up to A=440 and everything worked well. The only adjustment I do while playing is a little bit of first valve slide adjustment for some notes, for which I had the first valve vented and the slide lapped.

My advice: You should either follow Roger and Joe's advice, or use my testing method then follow Roger and Joe's advice.

Cheers,
Allen

rules of thumb. The way you play is - the way you play. If you have to change what you are doing to get the hron to work k for you, then , you are "going to the horn". For best results the horn "should come to you".

As I've said in the past, the horn has to like what you do to it. It should complement your skills sets and not require you to change what you do to get it to work the way you would like it to.

When we first sit down with a horn that we have not played before, a receptor site opens in the brain that anticipates a specific feel and sound. When the horn gives that receptor exactly what it is waiting to hear and feel, then your whole body will relax and you'll just play. If that receptor doesn't like what it gets, then you immediately start changing your jaw position, your embouchure, your air flow, etc, trying to get it to do what you want. This happens almost immediatley and then you are "chasing the horn". You should know right away when the horn gives you what you want it to.

Just an observation.

Peace.
Roger

Didn't you say that other people could play your horn in tune? If other people can play it in tune without extra effort, then I would guess the problem isn't the horn. Not that I'm an expert, but it sounds like you're squeezing. Have you ever done any exercises with a breathing tube?

sounds like you're squeezing

Now we're getting somewhere. I'd bet that you are thinking of air as air pressure and not air flow.