TubeNet

I don't know what the original poster had in mind...

But I would say--any single job through which the musician could live comfortably (not necessarily extravagantly) on that income ALONE.

If he or she decides to do something else (teach lessons, or teach a college studio, etc), than that is purely an optional choice, and not by need.

The 40 hour rule does not apply, as I doubt any orchestra would demand even half that.

What do you think, Dean...$30K plus?

I think any orchestra where they expect a) music is your job, and b) is esentially full time (most of the year). Payment will vary widely due to all manner of things including: area cost of living, amount of recording/recording contracts for the orchesra, number of programs, if the orchestra has a school attached, etc.

and I that case maybe there are a hundred of those jobs in the US? Maximum?

What about orchestras that still pay, but not enough to live on that income alone. Say a guy like my teacher who plays in two different orchestras in the area (both pay him), a quintet that gigs fairly frequently, teaches some students and perhaps sectionals for a local high school band or something. He still makes a living doing just his play. Add in groups like that, and what do the numbers look like then?

I think a better question would be how many people use tuba playing in a orchestra as a primary source of income?

In Austria there are approximately 8-10 positions for tuba in an orchestra fulltime. There are a few other positions who are combined with teaching at the conservatory or similar institutions just to get a fulltime employment. I'm speaking of the Innsbruck orchestra or the Klagenfurt theatre.

Fulltime tuba jobs in austria:

Vienna Philharmonic
Vienna State Opera
Vienna State Opera Stage Music (have to play in the Vienna Folk's Opera and the Burgtheater as well)
Vienna Folk's Opera
NÖ Tonkünstler Orchestra
Vienna Symphonic Orchestra
Bruckner Orchestra Linz
Mozarteum Orchestra Salzburg
Graz Opera

Tuba jobs with obligation to teach at the conservatory:

Innsbruck Symphonic Orchestra
Klagenfurt Theatre

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:What do you think, Dean...$30K plus?

That number would depend on location. But ya, I think 30k can "get ya by" just about anywhere. That's great money in Wyoming and poverty line in NYC, but it's enough.

I have always felt I would have a statistically better chance of becoming and NBA center (I am 5'10" and @ 155 lbs.) than I would of becoming a tubist in a Major US orchestra.

well, getting a tuba job is indeed as hard as pushing Shaq out of the paint but, according to your NBA comparison:

"You don't hit a shot you don't take!"

tubashaman wrote:At discount tire (its a job, id rather be playing my tuba though) working part time I could get about $30000 a year, but would spend ALOT of that on soap, bandaids, and other stuff.

You are dreaming, sir. I work full-time at $13 an hour (I suspect as much or more than you make part-time at discount tire). I make about $27K before taxes.

This is off-topic, but I just want to say that estimating costs against income hypothetically will never end well. There are so many factors to be determined, and your imagination will always get the best of you. Bills come up all the time; expenses that you never expected. Budgeting just to get by will never turn out in your favor. If you want to play professionally and are serious about it, join the military. There is job security and benefits that will put you at ease, and working hard will put you in a good position when you get out. I think I may go into a regular Army band after completing a Master's. Don't let fear take you over: I would rather take risks and have honor than run away and have insecurity. But to each his own..

tuben wrote:How would you define full time job?

My definition (borrowed from the Fair Labor Standards Act) would be those gigs that pay a salary for 21-40 hours a week rather than paying by the service. They usually provide benefits (such as they are), and they expect first shot at your time, at least during the season. Not all of those situations pay a living wage, but that would be true for some other jobs as well. It's the "living wage" definition that is hard to pin down. Minimum wage comes to just under $11,000 a year, and it's still a full-time job if you do it 40 hours a week.

I would doubt that there are more than 200 full-time orchestras in the world. None of them have a full-time euphonium player, though most probably have a first-call in their region.

For euphonium players, there are MANY more full-time military band positions. And considering the benefits, those are not only full-time positions, but they also pay a living wage.

Rick "thinking any pro wannabe euphonium player should get used to short hair" Denney

tubashaman wrote:Sorry I did my math wrong for the discount tire thing....its only $25000 a year, making $10 an hour

I think you are still doing your math wrong. $25,000 at $10/hr is 2,500 hours per year. That is 50 hours per week and definitley not part time.

In an attempt to get back to the original topic here, how many full-time tuba orchestral gigs ARE there here in America?

Here is a pretty big list of MOST larger symphonies here in the US:
* Akron Symphony Orchestra: Ya-Hui Wang
* Alabama Symphony Orchestra: Christopher Confessore1
* American Composers Orchestra: Steven Sloane
* American Symphony Orchestra: Leon Botstein
* Arkansas Symphony Orchestra: David Itkin
* Aspen Chamber Symphony: David Zinman
* Atlanta Symphony Orchestra: Robert Spano
* Austin Symphony Orchestra: Peter Bay
* Baltimore Symphony Orchestra: Yuri Temirkanov
* Baton Rouge Symphony: Timothy Muffitt
* Boston Philharmonic: Benjamin Zander
* Boston Pops: Keith Lockhart
* Boston Symphony Orchestra: James Levine
* Boulder Philharmonic Orchestra: Theodore Kuchar
* Brooklyn Philharmonic: Robert Spano
* Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra: JoAnn Falletta
* Cedar Rapids Symphony: Christian Tiemeyer
* Charleston Symphony Orchestra: David Stahl
* Charlotte Symphony: Christof Perick
* Chattanooga Symphony & Opera: Robert Bernhardt
* Chicago Sinfonietta: Paul Freeman
* Chicago Symphony Orchestra: Daniel Barenboim
* Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra: Paavo Järvi
* Cleveland Orchestra: Franz Welser-Möst
* Columbus Symphony Orchestra: Junichi Hirokami
* Dallas Symphony Orchestra: Andrew Litton
* Dayton Philharmonic Orchestra: Neal Gittleman
* Delaware Symphony Orchestra: David Amado
* Des Moines Symphony: Joseph Giunta
* Detroit Symphony Orchestra: Neeme Järvi
* Elgin Symphony Orchestra: Robert Hanson
* El Paso Symphony Orchestra: Gürer Aykal
* Erie Philharmonic: Hugh Keelan
* Evansville Philharmonic Orchestra: Alfred Savia
* Florida Orchestra: Stefan Sanderling
* Florida West Coast Symphony: Leif Bjaland1, 2
* Fort Wayne Philharmonic: Edvard Tchivzhel
* Fort Worth Symphony Orchestra: Miguel Harth-Bedoya
* Fresno Philharmonic Orchestra: Theodore Kuchar
* Grand Rapids Symphony: David Lockington
* Grant Park Orchestra (Chicago): Carlos Kalmar1
* Greensboro Symphony Orchestra: Dmitry Sitkovetsky
* Greenville Symphony Orchestra: Edvard Tchivzhel
* Handel & Haydn Society (Boston): Grant Llewellyn
* Harrisburg Symphony Orchestra: Stuart Malina
* Hartford Symphony Orchestra: Edward Cumming
* Honolulu Symphony Orchestra: Samuel Wong
* Houston Symphony: Hans Graf
* Indianapolis Symphony: Mario Venzago
* Jacksonville Symphony Orchestra: Fabio Mechetti
* Kalamazoo Symphony Orchestra: Raymond Harvey
* Kansas City Symphony: Michael Stern
* Kennedy Center Opera House Orchestra: Heinz Fricke
* Knoxville Symphony Orchestra: Lucas Richman
* Little Orchestra Society of New York: Dino Anagnost
* Long Beach Symphony Orchestra: Enrique Arturo Diemecke
* Long Island Philharmonic: David Wiley
* Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra: Jeffrey Kahane
* Los Angeles Philharmonic: Esa-Pekka Salonen
* Louisiana Philharmonic Orchestra: Klauspeter Seibel
* Louisville Orchestra: Uriel Segal
* Madison Symphony Orchestra: John DeMain
* Memphis Symphony Orchestra: David Loebel
* Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra: Andreas Delfs
* Minnesota Orchestra: Osmo Vänskä
* Mississippi Symphony Orchestra: Crafton Beck
* Monterey Symphony: Max Bragado-Darman
* Music of the Baroque (Chicago): Jane Glover
* Naples Philharmonic Orchestra: Jorge Mester
* Nashville Symphony: Kenneth Schermerhorn
* National Symphony (DC): Leonard Slatkin
* New Haven Symphony Orchestra: Jung-Ho Pak
* New Jersey Symphony Orchestra: Neeme Järvi
* New Mexico Symphony Orchestra: Guillermo Figueroa
* New West Symphony: Boris Brott
* New World Symphony (Fla.): Michael Tilson Thomas2
* New York Philharmonic: Lorin Maazel
* New York Pops: Skitch Henderson
* North Carolina Symphony: Grant Llewellyn
* Northeastern Pennsylvania Philharmonic: Lawrence Loh
* Oklahoma City Philharmonic: Joel Levine
* Omaha Symphony: Victor Yampolsky
* Omaha Symphony Chamber Orchestra: Victor
Yampolsky
* Oregon Symphony: Carlos Kalmar
* Pacific Symphony Orchestra (Calif.): Carl St. Clair
* Palm Beach Pops: Bob Lappin
* Philadelphia Orchestra: Christoph Eschenbach
* Philharmonia Baroque Orchestra: Nicholas McGegan
* Phoenix Symphony: Hermann Michael
* Pittsburgh Symphony: Mariss Jansons
* Portland Symphony Orchestra: Toshiyuki Shimada
* Quad City Symphony Orchestra: Donald Schleicher
* Rhode Island Philharmonic: Larry Rachleff
* Richmond Symphony: Mark Russell Smith
* River City Brass Band: Denis Colwell
* Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra: Christopher Seaman
* St. Louis Symphony Orchestra: David Robertson
* St. Paul Chamber Orchestra: Andreas Delfs
* San Antonio Symphony: Larry Rachleff
* San Francisco Symphony: Michael Tilson Thomas
* Santa Barbara Symphony Orchestra: Gisèle Ben-Dor
* Santa Rosa Symphony: Jeffrey Kahane
* Seattle Symphony: Gerard Schwarz
* Shreveport Symphony: Kermit Poling
* Spokane Symphony: Eckart Preu
* Springfield Symphony (Mass.): Kevin Rhodes
* Stamford Symphony Orchestra: Roger Nierenberg
* Syracuse Symphony Orchestra: Daniel Hege
* Toledo Symphony: Stefan Sanderling1
* Tucson Symphony Orchestra: George Hanson
* Utah Symphony: Keith Lockhart
* Virginia Symphony: JoAnn Falletta
* Westchester Philharmonic: Paul Lustig Dunkel
* West Virginia Symphony Orchestra: Grant Cooper1, 2
* Wichita Symphony: Andrew Sewell
* Winston-Salem Symphony: Robert Moody
* Youngstown Symphony Orchestra: Isaiah Jackson

There are several, several more smaller symphonies that may only play 4-8 times a year too that aren't listed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sy ... ted_States

Here's the listing in Wikipedia. Again, I can think of a few smaller symphonies that are left off just in my immediate area here in WV.

I'm not going to take the time to research your entire list (thanks, BTW), but as for one I do know a bit about...Oklahoma City is not a "full-time" tuba orchestral gig by measure of salary or # of services. If Ted Cox is around, I'm sure he'll agree.

Interestingly, the wiki article you pointed to does not list the Oklahoma City Symphony, but does list the Tulsa Philharmonic, which has just recently started back up and plays fewer concerts than OKC.

tubasinfonian wrote:In an attempt to get back to the original topic here, how many full-time tuba orchestral gigs ARE there here in America?

Here is a pretty big list of MOST larger symphonies here in the US:
...

Your list includes many that are not full-time gigs. They pay their musicians per service, not on a salary. One example is Austin, unless it's changed since I lived there. And that city is far bigger than many in your list.

In Texas, there are only four full-time professional orchestras as far as I know: Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, and Fort Worth. Here in Virginia, there are perhaps two or three.

I'm not even considering the living wage question.

Rick "getting paid does not full time make" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:
Your list includes many that are not full-time gigs. They pay their musicians per service, not on a salary. One example is Austin, unless it's changed since I lived there. And that city is far bigger than many in your list.

In Texas, there are only four full-time professional orchestras as far as I know: Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, and Fort Worth. Here in Virginia, there are perhaps two or three.

I'm not even considering the living wage question.

Rick "getting paid does not full time make" Denney

Indeed, you are quite correct. West Virginia Symphony, for example, is an $8000 a year job, not hardly a full-time position. These are simply orchestras that I'd consider to have 10 or more performances per year.

Possibly some cutting down on this list might provide a more accurate list of "full-time" orchestras!

Most of the full-time orchestras in the U.S. are part of ICSOM (International Conference of Symphony and Opera Musicans). The website http://www.icsom.org gives a list of those orchestras. To find salary info on that website, go to the "publications" heading and click "settlement bulletins." Those bulletins are generally the most up to date information about each orchestra's current collective bargaining agreement. There are a few orchestras in ICSOM that have minimums of less than 30,000/year. Most ICSOM orchestras pay more than that. I'm trying to think of U.S. orchestras that pay more than 30,000/year that are NOT in ICSOM and right now I'm coming up with Seattle, Grand Rapids, Omaha, (please add to my list or correct me). Grand Rapids and Omaha are part of ROPA (Regional Orchestra Players Association). ROPA orchestras are generally "per service" and many do not pay enough to live on exclusively (most players teach or do other "day jobs.") You can find ROPA member orchestras' salary info on http://www.ropaweb.org.

Based on quickly looking I would estimate the number of U.S. orchestras that pay more than 30K/year is somewhere around 47 or 48 (give a take a couple).

joebob wrote:Based on quickly looking I would estimate the number of U.S. orchestras that pay more than 30K/year is somewhere around 47 or 48 (give a take a couple).

That is some really low odds for those of you who might be looking for that kind of work.

You know, that's really sort of an eye opening figure! Obviously, as I pointed out earlier, there are many orchestras in the US, but most do not pay enough to live off of.

I am going guess that most of the per-service/smaller orchestras are comprised mainly of local college professors/public school teachers, or older players who were sort of grandfathered in?? That seems to be how it is around here.