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My 191 has filled the role very well. Plus, you might find a little bit of price competition with Miraphone dealers.

If you don't mind a little unsolicited opinion from a pragmatist who is also a big believer in Murphy's Law: Get the horn with the thickest brass, comes with a case, and is easiest to repair.

Although church sponsored instrumental ensembles have been around, well, for centuries, I've never heard of a church-owned tuba (church-operated schools don't count for this subject) until reading this thread.

What model tuba do churches generally own and in what types of ensembles are they played?

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here you go. Give the rest to the poor(or hire bigger orchestras for holidays )

The Schmidt would be a good choice. We just bought a VMI 3301 for a similar size group and it is just about perfect for the job. The musical contribution from HS kid who plays with us increased dramatically when we got him a decent horn. You don't have to spend 10K to get the job done.

Our space is moderately sized (seats about 300) and has really good acoustics, so pretty much anything fills it nicely. I've played on a Jupiter student horn and it was ok, our director plays her doublebass un-amplified usually and it's fine. When my 186 gets back from the shop, I'm gonna play it some and see what happens....might be time for some tuba solo work (eek).

186

It's a known quantity, it's easy to get used to for an amateur player, it is a true 4/4, it is value for money compared to the cost of other tubas, and it just flat does the job well. Read the nearby thread on 186, especially Matt's comments.

What a 186 is not: glamorous, trendy, overpriced, quirky.

I have been playing my Conn 56J in church for a while now. We have an orchestra that can average between 35 to 40 players and sometimes more. Our choir averages around 120 singers on any given Sunday. The auditorium seats about 1200. Not a mega church by any stretch of the imagination, but we can have quite a large crowd at times.

Anyway my Conn 56J can really rock the house when I need the horsepower. And it seems to be great for small ensembles and normal background music for the choir specials. For me it has been a perfect all around horn.

If you all are considering a BBb, you might want to check out the King 2341.

Willie

A church owning a tuba? That's blast-phemy!

(But at least it's not a bass trombone.)

My vote goes to the 186 in BBb also.

Chriss2760 wrote:A church owning a tuba? That's blast-phemy!

(But at least it's not a bass trombone.)

My vote goes to the 186 in BBb also.

We usually have no choice. Most of the available players are HS kids and the schools won't let them take them out.

Blanchard wrote: I'd like to be a good steward and find the best possible value. Please let me know your suggestion.
Dave

Based on that criteria, I'll add one more vote for a King 2341. Good tuba, good price.

I'll also plug the 2341 BBb, as well as the Jupiter 4v BBb (forget the number) - both are really nice tubas in silver... And very affordable.

J.c.S.

I've played both the King and the Jupiter. The King would be a viable option instead of a 186. The Jupiter just doesn't have what it takes outside of a high school band environment with several of them in section.

Think about the requirements:

1. In a key most amateur players can play. Most people who can play C or F have their own tubas. Eb's have also probably fully moved into that category except for some older players who learned on them. Thus, Bb is the only reasonable choice.

2. In a size that fits in the space (usually limited in a church), that blends with the ensemble (usually small in a church), and that fits in a hard case (essential--absolutely a must for a tuba used in this way) that can be reasonably stored. That mitigates against a 5/4 or 6/4 tuba.

3. A tuba that does not require air flow normally indicative of advanced training. Those who can blow a tuba with high air-flow requirements usually own their own instruments. This, in my view, recommends against the Miraphone 191 and 1291, both of which are not forgiving of limited air supply.

4. Good intonation without gymnastics. It should play reasonably in tune for just about anyone picking it up, without requiring months of learning its quirks, without requiring alternate fingerings, and without requiring lots of slide pulls.

5. A popular brand with a large installed based so that repairs and parts are readily available.

6. Reasonably tough. This recommends against tubas with highly annealed and therefore soft brass, such as Cerveny (at least the Cerveny I owned).

7. Sounds like a tuba. I find no reason to argue for stricter sound requirements than this. In most cases, players with the ability to make a really good sound have their own instruments, and for those likely to use such an instrument, they will be the limiting factor in the sound, not the instrument. And the occasional good player will make a good sound on any serviceable tuba.

8. Reasonably priced. The rest of the money should go for the mission activities of the church, not to entertaining the congregants. $10K is too high a budget, in my view. What you would get for that should have subtlety unnecessary for this application.

9. Something usable and not offensive to the occasional experienced player who might play it. To me, this leaves out (for the U.S., anyway) top-action tubas. I have been asked to sit in with a church orchestra because the regular player didn't show up, and I would not want to play, say, a Yamaha 321 just because I don't like the ergonomics and it requires me to look out of the wrong eye. (But if all the likely players are high-school kids who have such instruments at their schools, it might be a reasonable choice--or the Weril copy). But even a top pro would be able to manage a Miraphone 186 without feeling like he was being asked to compromise himself too much.

A King 2341 (old or new), Miraphone 186, VMI (or stencil) 3301, or VMI (or stencil) 2103/103 seem the best fit for these requirements. Most can be had new for well under $6000 (even now) and used for MUCH less. I once sold a 2103 clone to Hyde Park Baptist Church in Austin for $2500, and it is still in use a dozen years later.

Of these, the newer King has a significant advantage: it is quite stable when stood on its bell. I suspect being tipped while standing on the bell is the number-one cause of damage to tubas. But the person buying the tuba needs to be knowledgeable to ensure getting a good one.

Rick "recognizing that such decisions need to be justified" Denney

This has been interesting reading the posts.

I am the pastor of 3 small churches, all located in nursing homes, we bring church, worship to shut ins. We have no budget, no building, so salary, no problems. We ask for no donations, and do not accept them. We have 20 to 40 in church every Sunday, plus another 40 who listen from their beds.

We have great fun bringing the good news to those who can no longer get to church. We have church every Sunday, music is provided by a 1909 Martin Eb Tuba, or a Made in China BBb.

We have found everyone can sing with a tuba. Many who can no longer tell you their names can sing the old hymns, every verse by memory. The low tones seems to work memory magic. By comments over the last several years, the Eb is easy to sing to, the Bb is just a little too low.

If you want the members of the congergation to sing, my suggestion is to go with an Eb, like an old York, Besson, or Martin. The rich tones just seem to reach deep into your soul, and let God speak. Heavy thick brass seems to take a licking and keeps on looking good for a long time.

The Eb can be played by any treble cleff player, and you can play the melody line right out of the hymn books, with easy transpositions.

My suggestion is try some different horns, Let God Lead You, and your church. Blessings

What an interesting observation, Dusty!

I'm not surprized that folks find the sound of an Eb easy to sing along with, I'd never have thought of using such a thing for the only accompaniment though.

I agree with Denny that for the application discussed, any of the midrange full size horns discussed would be more than adaquate and last the church for untold years.

Dustytuba wrote:The Eb can be played by any treble cleff player, and you can play the melody line right out of the hymn books, with easy transpositions.

That is not a skill most hobbyist tuba players possess, except for the older ones who learned back when the Eb tuba was the "beginner" instrument.

The decision one might make for oneself for a particular situation will conform to a completely different set of requirements than the decision one might use for buying a tuba for use by anyone who might happen to play it. That distinction is important. In most church gigs, I'm in a small ensemble and usually bring an F tuba. But that's not what I would choose for any given church to buy. Any high-school-trained tuba player can manage a Bb tuba.

Of course, I'm thinking of the tuba being used to play the bass line out of a hymn book, or the tuba part of most church musicals. That is a different requirement than playing the melody line as the sole accompanist. I certainly enjoy the F tuba more for playing singable melodies.

By the way, I admire what you are doing, and I know from my own performances in retirement communities how important it is to the residents. It sounds like a wonderful ministry.

Rick "who has played in a wide range of church situations" Denney

Blanchard wrote:On a side note. This instrument and the orchestra in general is not used to "entertain congregants".

Hey, please don't take offense. You are talking to a believer who shares your motivations.

But I also have a lot of experience with church orchestras, and it is often hard to distinguish the real objectives of some of the musical extravaganzas in which I have participated. There have been times when it was quite apparent that the ego of the music minister was a principal motivator. And there have been other times when the church broadcasts their services on TV and want to put on a good show. In many cases, most of the musicians were hired not because of their affiliation with the church or their shared belief. How can they lead worship when they have no intention of being worshipful? In one case, the orchestra in which I played was hired just so that the choir could perform a work they wanted to perform for entirely musical reasons--the words were in a language the congregation didn't understand and there were no subtitles.

We are all sinners, and everything we do is thus tainted. Examining our motivations is a constant struggle, and challenging us to perform such examination is always appropriate. Hence, my statement. My intent was to suggest that buying a $10,000 tuba might not meet the requirements for leading worship any better than a $5000 tuba, but the $5000 difference might make a real difference in the mission work conducted by that church.

Rick "suggesting prayerful consideration of motives for others in similar circumstances" Denney

Out of curiosity, I tried out my 3/4 Chinese No-name .709 bore horn instead of the 191. Nobody noticed the difference or cared. Not the other musicians, nobody. How disappointing. But then: I would not notice or care if the fiddle player had a million dollar something, or a $99 Palatino. Get used to it. To 99.9999 percent of the listeners, a tuba is a tuba is a tuba. Until it gets dents in it. Then it's a tuba with dents in it.

I agree. I support. I "wear the t-shirt." I've been involved with church music, both choral and instrumental, since I was a toddler stood up in front to sing "Jesus Loves Me" with the rest of the Sunday School class. I am ingrained with the mind set of helping to facilitate worship, as the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer preface states, "...so the congregation may be edified thereby..." as opposed to mere performance.

The whole aspect of figuring out which tuba to buy for a church is a matter of dealing with limitations: limitations of the person who will likely be playing it, not just now, but in the future, limitations on church budget, limitations on the repertoire due to the limitations of the rest of the vocalists and instrumentalists, the worship space, and even the congregation. And we haven't even approached the issues of long term maintenance.

The fact that the resident genius and myself have both recommended the same horns (I forgot to include the "basic" VMI/B&S rotary in that group) should be taken as both of us trying to take into account all the above, including careful consideration as to what will actually and reasonably facilitate worship, keeping in mind all these limitations, while providing possible means of expansion of worship expression as a means of edifying the congregation, so at the end of the service the congregation will, "Go forth...." If either of us have left out an instrument that may well serve the purpose, it only shows we are all limited, and probably just haven't had any playing experience with that particular instrument, so silence on a particular model should not be automatically discounted as disapproval. We can all only genuinely opine only from experience.

The PT-605 is a new enough model that a specimen has not made it into the backwoods here in southwest Missouri where I live. I have seen its description and read its reviews. It's known in Europe as the GR-51, and has a high reputation.

I wish I had the opportunity to play one. I even posted a thread when I was in the market for a tuba a couple of years ago for anybody to comment on it.

I'm sure the PT-605 will be a fine tuba for its application. Let us know how it turns out.