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After reading one of Wade's posts, I was bored and decided to look up lists of both of these. If a seemingly major orchestra is not on either of them, is that odd? I am wondering because I have found lists to both, but cannot find Seattle of either...

No purpose in mind except being bored and curious.

This is where I found lists for both:

http://www.icsom.org/orchestras.html" target="_blank
http://www.ropaweb.org/component/option ... Itemid,35/" target="_blank

Thanks Wade! I really wish I knew more about the inner workings of how orchestras function. You mentioned 5 groups. What are the other 3?

What got me thinking was that post asking how many orchestras there were in the US. I know there are too many total (including all of the very small orchestras scattered around everywhere), but I was trying to get a rough estimate by combining those lists of orchestras who are members of either group, until I realized that Seattle wasn't there. Then I got bummed because who knows how many aren't members, but could still be considered a full-time orchestra. I'm beginning to think that the question asked was not only difficult to answer (maybe impossible to find all of them?), but at the least very complicated.

Nope, this isn't for any other reason other than I'm bored and I want to do weird wacky research stuff with my spare time.

sc_curtis wrote:What got me thinking was that post asking how many orchestras there were in the US. (cut) I'm beginning to think that the question asked was not only difficult to answer (maybe impossible to find all of them?), but at the least very complicated.

In a nutshell, mostly because we found we can't establish what a "full-time" orchestra is with any real precision. You say tomato, I say tomahto and all that. For some reason, that thread created some hard feelings and lots of confusion.

I would say there is no "full-time" orchestra in Oklahoma, but I'm sure some would disagree with me (perhaps the two guys with the tuba spots here, but I doubt it).

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:In a nutshell, mostly because we found we can't establish what a "full-time" orchestra is with any real precision.

It's easy enough to define that. The difficult definition is which ones pay a living wage.

A full-time professional orchestra is one that pays its core musicians on a regular salary in return for an expectation of more than 20 hours a week. A part-time professional orchestra is one that pays its core musicians on a regular salary in return for an expectation of less than 20 hours a week.

As distinct from these terms, which are fairly well established in human resource circles (and in the Fair Labor Standards Act), I have used the term "semi-professional" to describe orchestras that pay their core musicians on a per-service basis.

It's an easy definition for the orchestra management--it directly affects the laws that govern how they deal with those employees.

By "core musicians", I include the majority or near-majority of performers. Those are the musicians considered to have tenure. I think it takes more than just how the principals are employed to define the category in which an orchestra belongs, but even the richest full-time orchestra will at least occasionally use per-service musicians. Wade's orchestra, with 30 core musicians paid on a regular salary, seems to me to meet my definition of a full-time orchestra.

Rick "noting that all three categories are represented on the ROPA list" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:In a nutshell, mostly because we found we can't establish what a "full-time" orchestra is with any real precision.

It's easy enough to define that. The difficult definition is which ones pay a living wage.

A full-time professional orchestra is one that pays its core musicians on a regular salary in return for an expectation of more than 20 hours a week. A part-time professional orchestra is one that pays its core musicians on a regular salary in return for an expectation of less than 20 hours a week.

Agreed, Rick...I should have been more precise.

The difficulty (to me) lies in the fact that we aren't privy to the payroll details of most of the orchestras in question. We are restricted to public information such as roster, season length/# of performances, and membership in ICSOM/ROPA or the like. That seems (again, to me) to be the road-block for folks on TubeNet who wish to determine "how many orchestras are there?" with any real accuracy.

And, if you think about it, it really makes little difference to those of us who desire a job "in the field." You either win a given audition when it comes up, or you don't. My beef has always been with the perception that it is unacceptable to be upfront and honest about employment potential as an orchestral tubist, particularly with the starry-eyed undergraduate tuba performance students. Looking back, I wish I had known then (20 years ago) what I know now.