Can't decide whether to go for an F or E-flat

[tubaknut]

I'm about to get my self a bass tuba, but I've almost given up to decide whether I should go for an F or an E-flat.

Until I got my Hirsbrunner CC, I had only played on various E-flats, mostly from Yamaha and Besson. I have quite extensive experience from playing E-flat, and it suits me really well. I've done solos, symphony, wind band, British brass band and just about everything with my E-flat. I don't know what made me thinking about it, but now I'm stuck in the middle way between E-flat and F.

It would be interesting to see your opinions on F vs. E-flat.

Personally I think I might benefit from converting to F by that I learn a new set of fingerings, which I can also utilize when I use my CC as a substitute for BB-flat in brass bands. I generally like the sound from F-tubas as well, but not in favour of one or the other. With F-tubas I also have a greater choice in different models.

I generally prefer front-action instruments, with 5 rotors right hand. Rotary or not isn't really a question, since I don't have any strong feelings against either rotary or piston valves.

So, what do you think? Should I try to convert, or just stick with my usual E-flat habit?
Just a little end note: If I'm to convert, I'll definitely test run as many F-tubas as possible prior to buying one.

[MikeMason]

Just get a Norwegian Star Eb.It'll sound and look like a good f but you will still have your comfortable Eb friend...

[tubaknut]

Just get a Norwegian Star Eb.It'll sound and look like a good f but you will still have your comfortable Eb friend...

That's kind of the answer I was looking for. I've played the Norwegian Star at several occations, and it is truly a very good instrument. I think I'll give Øystein a call.

[Rick Denney]

Go back into the old archives and look for posts on this subject by Jay Bertolet. He uses four tubas, a large C (Nirschl-York), a smaller C (Rudy? my memory is fuzzy), a large Eb (Willson), and a small Eb (Cerveny). The large Eb was for big orchestral stuff where he wanted the lightness of a bass tuba but the sound more like a contrabass. The small Eb was for those occasions when he wanted the sound of a traditional F tuba, such as for Berlioz (the example is mine, not his). He argued eloquently that Eb tubas were as effective in orchestral situations as F tubas.

There are great Eb tubas available, so it's not a matter of have to choose based on quality. And I doubt that anyone could tell the difference out front, or even in the next chair.

So, choose based on which instrument you think will best fulfill your artistic intentions. Try both Eb and F tubas equally, and let the results speak for themselves.

But if you are a student in a performance major, you will benefit from knowing all four pitches, and unwillingness to learn F fingerings should not be a factor in the decision. Beyond that, though, the decision should be based on musical and personal objectives.

Rick "a lazy amateur" Denney

[tubaknut]

I think your opinions are really fear. After what I've learned playing two of these horns, the NorStar and the MW, I've come to approximately the same conclusion as you.

For me the NorStar was very free blowing, with an interesting and powerful low register. It easily spoke clearly all the way down to the sub contra range. I had some difficulties playing scales really fast, but that resides just on me not having played rotary valves for a long time. When I put the pressure on, it made a clear and somewhat crispy tone. Nothing overwhelmingly large, but safe and sound.

The MW I actually got to play during competitions a few weeks ago. For various reasons I wasn't able to use my regular E-flat, so I had to borrow one from a stand. Fortunately I got to play exactly the same horn a couple of months ago during the national championships, and it made a really good impression this time as well. I found it to be just as easy playing as the NorStar, but the response wasn't just as great. The sound however, was really large! You might compare it soundwise to a good Besson Sovereign, but without all the hazzles of auto compensation. The low range felt a bit more stuffy, needing just a bit more work to get it right. My main conserns about this instrument it, however, that the valves are placed unreasonably high up. I got a slightly disturbing twitch to my wrist that wasn't comfortable. The valves didn't do the job for me either, but this was mainly due to lack of proper lubricant. They felt sticky so to speak. But besides that I think it's a great tuba.

I haven't tried the Willson, but I'll enquire locally to see if I can try one out.

[jonesbrass]

FWIW, I'd say go and play as many bass tubas you can find (perhaps at Dillon's, Baltimore Brass, or WWBW). Don't worry about what the name is on the bell or what kind of valves it has. Play them all. One will probably click with how you want to sound, the response, intonation, etc. You will "find" each other. The key of the horn and the name on the bell mean nothing (as long as the quality of construction is good and replacement parts are available). It's what you can do with them and what they inspire you to do that matters.
Plus, it's really fun to do it that way!!!

[tubaknut]

FWIW, I'd say go and play as many bass tubas you can find (perhaps at Dillon's, Baltimore Brass, or WWBW).

If that was an easy option, I would have done it a long time ago. The thing is that i live in Norway, so it's quite a journey just to test tubas, but I do actually have a plan for coming over the pond to see the musical America, and try tubas.

[Wyvern]

The sound however, was really large! You might compare it soundwise to a good Besson Sovereign, but without all the hazzles of auto compensation.

What mouthpiece were you using? The M-W 2040/5 should have very much a large F tone, in my trials in between that of a M-W 45 and B&S PT-15. It sounds nothing like a Besson Sovereign

My main conserns about this instrument it, however, that the valves are placed unreasonably high up. I got a slightly disturbing twitch to my wrist that wasn't comfortable. The valves didn't do the job for me either, but this was mainly due to lack of proper lubricant. They felt sticky so to speak. But besides that I think it's a great tuba.

The valve placement is higher than average and can feel strange initially, but I have had no wrist problems playing mine. M-W seem to having improved their rotary valves a lot over the last few years. The ones on my 18 month old 2040/5 are excellent.

[TMurphy]

I'm an exclusively E-flat player (due to being able to only afford one horn), and I can totally understand your thoughts about not wanting to learn new fingerings. I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor, though. I agree with jonesbrass--if you're considering taking a trip to America to try out a few horns, go, and play EVERYTHING you can get your hands on, without regard to pitch. Find the bass tuba that works best for you, and worry about the key of the horn later.

That's kinda how I ended up playing Eb....the Besson 983 just fit. My teacher and I decided it was such a good fit that it was worth selling my BBb horn for.

[tubaknut]

What mouthpiece were you using? The M-W 2040/5 should have very much a large F tone, in my trials in between that of a M-W 45 and B&S PT-15. It sounds nothing like a Besson Sovereign

I used my LM7. Maybe Besson Sovereign wasn't the best comparison. It feels more like a large F tuba indeed, but it somewhat gave me the sense of roundness and the bold tone you can get from a Sovereign.

The valve placement is higher than average and can feel strange initially, but I have had no wrist problems playing mine. M-W seem to having improved their rotary valves a lot over the last few years. The ones on my 18 month old 2040/5 are excellent.

I might adapt to it over time. I think I'll have to test it further. There must have been something wrong with the valves on the instrument I laid my hands on. I would expect the 2040/5 to have just as fast rotors as the NorStar.

I'm an exclusively E-flat player (due to being able to only afford one horn), and I can totally understand your thoughts about not wanting to learn new fingerings.

In my world I don't think fingerings really. I just play as I would on any tuba, transposing real time from what ever the music is written in.

I've tried quite a few different bass tubas, and so far my experience tells me that I'm after a "german style" 5-valve E-flat with rotary valves. Due to easy availability, I'm also quite certain that the run will be NorStar vs. MW 2040/5, but I want to try more before I make up my mind.

[Wyvern]

It feels more like a large F tuba indeed, but it somewhat gave me the sense of roundness and the bold tone you can get from a Sovereign.

The 2040/5 can certainly produce a bold tone. I used my previous yellow brass one to play Mahler 6 before I had a Neptune and it worked!

I've tried quite a few different bass tubas, and so far my experience tells me that I'm after a "german style" 5-valve E-flat with rotary valves. Due to easy availability, I'm also quite certain that the run will be NorStar vs. MW 2040/5, but I want to try more before I make up my mind.

Which of those two is very much down to if you personally prefer the brighter Miraphone tone, or darker Meinl-Weston tone. I was also very impressed with the Rudolf Meinl rotary Eb if you get the chance to try one (a trip to the factory at Diespeck may be required).

[jon112780]

I've never played a modern Eb with a bad low register.

I've only played a few modern F's with a decent/good low register (Yamaha 621+822/MW45SLP/Wilson 3100).

But as long as the bass tuba has a good: overall sound, decent intonation, plays well, AND has a good low register, it's more like the horn picks you; not the other way around.

I've played a couple horns that perhaps had a slightly better high register or played a tad more in tune than my 983 Eb, but overall; I went back to my 983 because it was the best overall horn FOR WHAT I WAS DOING.

Hope this helps.

[tuba kitchen]

I am also an Eb player, even after really trying to make friends with the f-tuba, which didn't work for me. I am an American working in a German orchestra. Recently, I went to the Frankfurt Musik Fair to try Eb tubas with the Willson in mind. In the end, I bought the MW 2040: looks like an f, sounds like an f and has a great response in all registers. Also, I tried the NorStar: forget it!! My 2nd choice would be the Rudi Meinl, but very expensive!!

[TMurphy]

I've tried quite a few different bass tubas, and so far my experience tells me that I'm after a "german style" 5-valve E-flat with rotary valves. Due to easy availability, I'm also quite certain that the run will be NorStar vs. MW 2040/5, but I want to try more before I make up my mind.

Also consider the Star Light. I tried one at Dillon's recently, and found it to be a great horn....low register was very open, easy to play (big difference from my 983).

[tubaknut]

I am also an Eb player, even after really trying to make friends with the f-tuba, which didn't work for me. I am an American working in a German orchestra. Recently, I went to the Frankfurt Musik Fair to try Eb tubas with the Willson in mind. In the end, I bought the MW 2040: looks like an f, sounds like an f and has a great response in all registers. Also, I tried the NorStar: forget it!! My 2nd choice would be the Rudi Meinl, but very expensive!!

Interesting! the MW2040 is a really good instrument. I'd just have to get used to it I guess, just like with any other instrument. One thing i noticed when I borrowed one a few weeks ago, was that there seems to be more leverage on the thumb operated 5th valve. A longer stroke to fully activate the valve. Have you noticed this?

May I ask why the NorStar didn't meet your expectations?

I've made an enquiry to Rudi Meinl about their Eb. My only anchor point about it is that the 5th valve is left hand operated. Might not be a problem, but I prefer to keep a consistent valve arrangement on my instruments.

[Wyvern]

I've made an enquiry to Rudi Meinl about their Eb. My only anchor point about it is that the 5th valve is left hand operated. Might not be a problem, but I prefer to keep a consistent valve arrangement on my instruments.

I discussed this with Herr Meinl when I visited the factory last year. The Eb are ONLY made to order and they will manufacture with right hand thumb operated 5th valve if specified.

If I had not already purchased my 2040/5, I might have been tempted, but they are very expensive. More than double the price of a standard Melton/Meinl-Weston.

[tubaknut]

I discussed this with Herr Meinl when I visited the factory last year. The Eb are ONLY made to order and they will manufacture with right hand thumb operated 5th valve if specified.

If I had not already purchased my 2040/5, I might have been tempted, but they are very expensive. More than double the price of a standard Melton/Meinl-Weston.

That sounds very good - that they can manufacture it with a right thumb activated 5th valve. Money will of course be a subject, but if I fall in love with this rudy I'll just have to save for a while.

[tubaknut]

I've been in touch with Rudolf Meinl Jr., and he gives me some interesting prices.

The retail price for the 4/4 Eb with 5 valves is 13800 USD, not including shipment or taxes.
When you said expensive earlier, I was expecting a price tag in the region 25000+ USD. It would be really interesting to try these out, but unfortunately the easiest way to do that, is at the factory. Seems like I'll have to plan a vacation soon.

For those of you interested, the 6/4 Bb goes for somewhere in the region of 23000 USD.