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I have been a bass trombone/tuba doubler for 6 years. For the last 3 years I've have spent considerably more time on the tuba than anything else. I have had a consistant playing problem since I picked up a tuba. I often enter after a long rest on the wrong partial. A written Ab may speak as a C, or an F a D. It is not consistantly either the upper or lower mistake but always after a sufficient rest to fog up my relative pitch. It appears to be a disconnect between my embochure and my pitch center. It does get worse as I get higher just like a French horn. The amount of practice I do trying to correct the issue has no effect. If I can sneak a buzz or even hum a pitch during a rest it helps. I hear and correct it immediately but you can imagine the trouble it causes. I never have this trouble on trombone, but I've been using that embochure set for over 50 years. The first tuba I owned was a little Pan American Eb that Lee Stofer had put a 4th valve on while he was at the Meinl factory. Great little horn that I wish I had back. I traded it back to him for a small German Bb largely because of the problem I just described. The problem did get better after the switch to the same relative key as I was used to, Bb, but it didn't go away completely. I have always liked the rotary stovepipe sound and have owned or consistantly played 4 of them over the last few years, a Miraphone 186, an old Amati 186 clone, my Bielefelder and my 184. The problem persisted with all of these horns to about the same degree. Last month my church purchased a VMI 3301 which I have access to and have played exclusively since then. To my surprise I noticed in a rehearsal recently that I didn't miss a single entrance. I spent last week doing some side by side work with the 184 and the VMI and there is no doubt about the results. The clams are almost nonesistant with the VMI and continue as always with the 184. Same mouthpice same music side by side, back to back. I find it hard to believe the evidence, but it certainly suggests I need to retire the 184 and go merrily on my way. I can't bear to part with it because with the intonation and these other issues I still can't make the VMI produce the sound I want to hear. Am I going crazy? Is this all psychosomatic? Had anyone else had or heard of this?

I think you're going crazy!

Seriously, no clue. I had a downwind horn player once who had trouble hearing the pitch after a long rest, and I used to hum it for him when he started looking frantic. But that's neither here nor there. Maybe somehow the way the VMI responds just fits better with your bass bone chop-set.

MA

I lose pitch center rather easily during long rests. I deal with it by practicing entrances quite a bit. Go play some other part of a piece, maybe a part in a different key, then stop, go back and hit the entrance a few times. Screw the learning the scales. Practice entrances. Loud. Soft. Focus on what it sounds like and what it feels like. Unlike you, it has never made any difference to me which horn I was using.

SplatterTone wrote: I deal with it by practicing entrances quite a bit.

That is what I do. I got into the habit when I moved to euphonium from trumpet, and then to Eb tuba. Mispitching an entrance is usually considered one of the major sins by directors I play under, so I practiced and practiced entrances until I could hear them in my sleep. As I have become more experienced on Eb pitch I only practice them now when it's a note I'm not so confident with, or it's a tuba solo entry and the MD is right on my case. The problem is made worse if the MD is a woodwind player, and can't understand how you can possibly get it wrong if you have put the right fingers down.

Hello Tbn.al,

I appreciate your post. I have enjoyed reading of your situation and thinking through solutions I’d try if I were teaching a student with similar concerns. I was plagued with missing partials most of my career as a tuba player/performer, so I had spent lots of time figuring out how to solve it. I have taken a sentence or two at a time from your post and put in quotation marks followed by my thoughts. As for any of my comments, follow the logic only as far as you agree with me and question anything that is not correct in your opinion.

tbn.al wrote: I have had a consistant playing problem since I picked up a tuba. I often enter after a long rest on the wrong partial. ...... It is not consistantly either the upper or lower mistake but always after a sufficient rest to fog up my relative pitch.

This is probably a combination of two things: First your pitch memory of the first note after the longer rests may not be specific enough, and second, the tuba that gives you the most problem probably won’t play the right note unless you buzz it pretty accurately. Generally speaking, most brass instruments will play the partial closest to the one you are buzzing but some tubas have a wider range of “flexibility” regarding this phenomenon.

tbn.al wrote: It appears to be a disconnect between my embochure and my pitch center.

This is Possible if the problem only occurs with tuba and not trombone, but unless you have not played tuba very much the problem is more likely from your pitch center in the brain. I think it would be very unusual if you heard one pitch in your brain then buzzed a different one into the instrument for your entrance. It is more likely that you aren't deciding what to play first. This problem is not hard to improve on: all during your daily practice routine give yourself 4 or 5 seconds of rest then before playing your next note, imagine very specifically how it sounds pitch wise. Develop a habit of hearing every note in your head first.

(added May 20 after reading comments made by others about mouthpiece buzzing) The great advantage of buzzing the mouthpiece with this exercise is that it is the only way you can check yourself for sure regarding pitch accuracy. For example-- if you are attempting a Bb on your entrance and you buzz a B natural instead, most of the time it will come out Bb. The problem with that is that you never find out that your were not very accurate so you never refine it. The result of this over time is that your accuracy will seem to be hit-or-miss. And in performance situations where you are under pressure to be consistent you will not be able to know for sure whether or not the note is going to be there for you. Immediate and accurate feedback is the solution. Do the exercise every day repetitively. Check yourself by doing it on the mouthpiece. Also, every time you miss a partial, take the mouthpiece off and buzz it exactly as you first played it. Most of the time you will discover that you were buzzing the wrong pitch--- Not because your embouchure was disconnected, but because you didn't know what you were buzzing.

tbn.al wrote: It does get worse as I get higher just like a French horn.

This is caused by the partials being closer together in the upper register which means for the right note to come out you have to buzz within a smaller range of pitches compared to lower notes.

tbn.al wrote: The amount of practice I do trying to correct the issue has no effect. If I can sneak a buzz or even hum a pitch during a rest it helps.

Then change is required regarding what and how you practice rather than amount of time spent working on it. Your comment indicates that it helps when you hear it first. Think and decide how the note sounds in your head before playing it. Do this as an exercise on everything you practice, especially the first note of a group or phrase.

tbn.al wrote: I hear and correct it immediately but you can imagine the trouble it causes. I never have this trouble on trombone, but I've been using that embochure set for over 50 years.

My thought here is that your trombone is possibly more flexible (has a wider pitch range that it accepts before not responding or changing partials) than the tuba in question has. It is also very possible that you have set up some bad habits on tuba that are not present when you play trombone. Sometimes when we hear a problem we do all sorts of crazy things to fix it. You may be trying to correct this problem on tuba by changing what was already a good embouchure for instance. The solution for pitch problems in this situation is usually not the embouchure but rather in knowing very specifically what the pitch sounds like in your mind before you buzz or play it.

tbn.al wrote: The first tuba I owned was a little Pan American Eb that Lee Stofer had put a 4th valve on while he was at the Meinl factory. Great little horn that I wish I had back. I traded it back to him for a small German Bb largely because of the problem I just described. The problem did get better after the switch to the same relative key as I was used to, Bb...

This surprises me because playing any given note on Eb tuba requires less pitch accuracy in buzzing than would be required for the same note on BBb tuba. This is because the partial used in producing any note on BBb tuba is closer to its neighboring partials than it is on Eb tuba. The closer partials are to each other, the more accurate the buzz frequency has to be in order for the right note to come out. I do understand the ease of playing on an instrument in a familiar key though.

tbn.al wrote: I have always liked the rotary stovepipe sound and have owned or consistantly played 4 of them over the last few years, a Miraphone 186, an old Amati 186 clone, my Bielefelder and my 184. The problem persisted with all of these horns to about the same degree. Last month my church purchased a VMI 3301 which I have access to and have played exclusively since then. To my surprise I noticed in a rehearsal recently that I didn't miss a single entrance. I spent last week doing some side by side work with the 184 and the VMI and there is no doubt about the results. The clams are almost nonesistant with the VMI and continue as always with the 184. Same mouthpice same music side by side, back to back. I find it hard to believe the evidence, but it certainly suggests I need to retire the 184 and go merrily on my way. I can't bear to part with it because with the intonation and these other issues I still can't make the VMI produce the sound I want to hear. Am I going crazy? Is this all psychosomatic? Had anyone else had or heard of this?

I had most of my response problems on a BBb stove pipe tuba as well. Mine was the Meinl Weston 25 but it was a wonderful tuba. Some of my very best playing was done on that tuba in band, orchestra and quintet as well. I think the reason it was harder to play without missing partials was because it was not very flexible at all. It was not hard to play in tune if I used a few alternate fingerings because it was such a well designed and constructed instrument, but forget bending the pitches very far with my embouchure! I switched to a large CC tuba later that was very flexible and I was able to play much harder music with a much higher degree of accuracy. I think the added flexibility increased accuracy greatly but also the shorter pipe on on the CC tuba caused some of the notes to be on a lower partial and therefore gave me more wiggle room. I have also had improvement with accuracy on tubas that had less resistance. Sometimes more resistance caused me to screw up my embouchure, and multiple variables can definitely cause you to think you are going crazy when trying to solve a problem.

You and I are playing the same horns and I too am a long time bass bone player that started playing tuba some 25+ years after playing only bass bone. I am using a Bach 1G on my Besson and a Bach 24W on my 184. I tried several different mp's on the 184 and did have trouble with slotting using funnel shaped mp's. 24W has a bowl shaped cup and is slightly shallower than the 24AW. The 24W has a very similar feel to the 1G so I feel real comfortable when switching horns sometimes in the middle of a chart (big band).
I do have a little trouble slotting on notes on entrances that are above the Bb on the top of the staff, but I have always attributed that to the fact that I don't practice the tuba nearly enough to really feel comfortable up there. Yes, some horns are going slot better than others but in your case it could be that the mp just matches better with the 3301.

I scuffed a couple of really bad ones the same way in community band rehearsal last night. One thing I occasionally do if it's going to be a problem maintaining pitch or key center or memory is to pencil in as cues another part's notes, depending on the context, like a lower woodwind part transitioning or a middle brass part setting the texture for the entrance, for a measure or two before the entrance so I can get a bearing as to where I'm coming in.

I have buzzed using a tuner (or keyboard) for some improvement with difficult-to-center notes. It makes me realize how little control I had before the practice.

Wow...fascinating. I haven't played that many tubas in my life, and I shouldn't be surprised that some horns slot better than others, but I am, especially for folks like me that are simply unsure of hitting the right partial.

I always had less trouble hitting partials when playing in the context of a pit orchestra, but when practicing at home, I've had all sorts of problems in hitting the correct partial, even playing Bordogni etudes where it was easy to "hear" the pitch in my mind even before playing it.

I agree with an above post--if practicing doesn't seem to help, perhaps you need to reconsider what you are doing when you practice.

Many posts suggest buzzing pitches on the mouthpiece, and I agree. I really think this will help with your problem. If you can hear the correct note in your head, but aren't producing it, then you need to spend time buzzing. Bloke's idea is a good one--just periodically pick up a mouthpiece, hear a pitch in your head, and buzz it. I also find it helps to buzz simple melodies I am familair with (Amazing Grace is a favorite of mine). When doing this, focus on making sure the pitches and intervals are right...give yourself a starting pitch with a piano or pitch-pipe, if possible. All this should help.

Agree. I think mouthpiece buzzing is one of the best-known practice secrets. Even knowing this, I still don't buzz often enough.