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So I've been doing some research on the American manufacturers, and I can't find a full explanation of the "King cyborg" episode mentioned here, whatever it may be. Can somebody explain this to me or link me to a past discussion, the likes of which I cannot find?

Much appreciation.

The King name is now just a part of the 'Cyborg'. United Musical instruments gobbled up Armstrong, King, Conn, Leblanc, and others and then the whole mess was snuffled up by Conn-Selmer-Steinway.... the folks now referred to as the 'cyborg'. On the other side of the pond, the large conglomerates are Amati and Buffet-Crampon. It's getting really hard to tell exactly where the different brands are being manufactured now.

Yeah, I was aware of the conglomeration of the companies. Now I understand the lingo; thank you. One more thing, though. When someone says "before the cyborg" (usually denoting the quality of an instrument's build), what approximate date would he be referring to--at least in the case of King? The reason I ask is that I have a King Fiberglass sousaphone that, as far as I can tell from the somewhat unclear serial numbering system, is from 1981-82, and I'd like to know what the perceptions of this thing are.

lendril wrote:Yeah, I was aware of the conglomeration of the companies. Now I understand the lingo; thank you. One more thing, though. When someone says "before the cyborg" (usually denoting the quality of an instrument's build), what approximate date would he be referring to--at least in the case of King? The reason I ask is that I have a King Fiberglass sousaphone that, as far as I can tell from the somewhat unclear serial numbering system, is from 1981-82, and I'd like to know what the perceptions of this thing are.

Your King sousa has been relatively unchanged for several decades. Production has been in Eastlake, Ohio for at least that long. The mid to late 80's merged the Conn stuff into Eastlake... merging the Conn 12/14/15J series of tubas and he 14K/36K sousaphones into the King production. There doesn't seem to have been much change in the King horns but the Conn stuff has sure taken a beating. As far as I know, the only TRUE Conn sousa left is the 20K.

Thank you, Dan, for all the information. Quite helpful and enlightening.

Having played numerous examples of just such cyborg instruments over the past 25 to 30 years, I can vouch for what Dan says from both playing them, and from discussions with the gentleman, now passed, who owned the music store where I grew up, and who supplied King instruments for, well, from before WWII until he passed, including selling horns to my dad (see my signature), my uncle, and me.

It was a little bit more of a twisty road for King than for Conn and some of the other directly assimilated brands, in that after H. N. White died, his widow tried to run the company for a few years, but finally sold to a group of investors which renamed the company King Musical Instruments, which then bought Benge and a couple of others, then became UMI, and sometime after that was finally assimilated by the cyborg.

H. N. White died in 1965, the company became King Musical Instruments not too long after that, and became UMI in the early 80's, as Dan said. So the last true "pre-cyborg" King instruments are before the company became UMI in the early 80's and the last real King instruments are arguably mid-60's before the people who built them with long tenure while H. N. White was alive finally retired.

iiipopes wrote:H. N. White died in 1965, the company became King Musical Instruments not too long after that

Just a small correction, Henderson N. White passed away in 1940. Mrs. Edna White, and her daughter Miss Cathryn White together controlled two-thirds of the stock in The H. N. White Company. Mrs. Edna White took control of the company as President just as World War Two started. Around the middle of 1964 it became clear the current factory was outdated. King had been manufacturing in the same buildings for more than fifty years and a new location was needed. In 1964 Mrs. Edna White purchased 12.5 acres of land to put a new plant on in Eastlake Ohio. Another big change that happened in September 1964 was that Cathryn updated the King logo to the modern crown that is still used today. Then 1965 with her health fading, Mrs. White, along with her daughter decided to sell the company to Mr. Nate Dolan and his partners. For the next few years Mrs. White would still go to work at the Eastlake facility that she helped build but she never grew to like it as much as the 5225 Superior location. Mrs. Edna White died in 1969 and Mrs. Cathryn (Kay) White passed away in 2005. The family is survived by Cathryn's two grandchildren who live in Ohio. Details provided from HNWhite .com


Daniel C. Oberloh

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:For the next few years Mrs. White would still go to work at the Eastlake facility that she helped build but she never grew to like it as much as the 5225 Superior location.

The site of the old factory is now high rise public housing. My wife's office is a few blocks up the road (next door to the Glaesel shop).

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:

iiipopes wrote:H. N. White died in 1965, the company became King Musical Instruments not too long after that

Just a small correction, Henderson N. White passed away in 1940. Mrs. Edna White, and her daughter Miss Cathryn White together controlled two-thirds of the stock in The H. N. White Company. Mrs. Edna White took control of the company as President just as World War Two started. Around the middle of 1964 it became clear the current factory was outdated. King had been manufacturing in the same buildings for more than fifty years and a new location was needed. In 1964 Mrs. Edna White purchased 12.5 acres of land to put a new plant on in Eastlake Ohio. Another big change that happened in September 1964 was that Cathryn updated the King logo to the modern crown that is still used today. Then 1965 with her health fading, Mrs. White, along with her daughter decided to sell the company to Mr. Nate Dolan and his partners. For the next few years Mrs. White would still go to work at the Eastlake facility that she helped build but she never grew to like it as much as the 5225 Superior location. Mrs. Edna White died in 1969 and Mrs. Cathryn (Kay) White passed away in 2005. The family is survived by Cathryn's two grandchildren who live in Ohio. Details provided from HNWhite .com
Daniel C. Oberloh

I stand corrected. I didn't recall properly the transition phase. Thanks for the post.