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How does the St. Petersburg stack up against the 186, pound for pound? Everyone knows who the underdog is, but where exactly does the St. Pete stand?

Anyone have an educated opinon on this? Would like to hear opinions from people who are actually seasoned players, and have had some real practice and performance time playing both horns!

clintontuba2 wrote:How does the St. Petersburg stack up against the 186, pound for pound? Everyone knows who the underdog is, but where exactly does the St. Pete stand?

Anyone have an educated opinon on this? Would like to hear opinions from people who are actually seasoned players, and have had some real practice and performance time playing both horns!

I have never performed on a St. Pete. But I have played several of them. One howled at the moon, but it was old and in poor condition. The better ones actually didn't play that badly, but the valves were terrible and the quality of construction was poor at best. The 202 may be somewhat better. I would take the St. Pete any day of the week over some of the Asian tuba-shaped objects that to which we have been subjected, or even over the ancient pea-shooter tubas from the more western parts of Europe. At least it is a real tuba.

But the Miraphone is consistently made, repairable, durable, and has withstood the test of time. I would own a St. Pete over some alternatives (including nothing), but I would not choose it over a Miraphone. Used Miraphones in moderate condition sell for about the same price as new St. Petes. Since used ones are bought by people on their own behalf (i.e., not by clarinet-playing band directors), the market has spoken. In this case, I agree with the market.

Rick "who would rather have a St. Pete than the Besson Stratford once owned" Denney

Thanks for the input. it was well said, i think i would rather buy a used 186, than a new st. pete. any opinions between Mira. 186 and King 2341 new style??

clintontuba2 wrote:Thanks for the input. it was well said, i think i would rather buy a used 186, than a new st. pete. any opinions between Mira. 186 and King 2341 new style??

Now, that's a much tougher choice. And it's a real choice, not just good and less-good examples of the same kind of instrument.

The Miraphone produces a focused, direct sound that in careless hands can peel paint. The King is a rounder and more broadly colorful sound. There are no real words to describe the differences. The Miraphone is still better made that the King, but a good King is competently put together. I might sway towards the King, but it would also depend on my playing situation at the time. Polka band? Miraphone. Sousa? King. Tchaikovsky? Miraphone. Gershwin? King. The King would be my choice to listen to for jazz, but for contemporary solos I would probably sway Miraphone.

To make this choice, I think personal experience is really a must. You need to find a way to try them out, even if by locating owners who will let you play them for a little while.

Rick "thinking both are great tubas in their own way" Denney

I've played on both a 186 and St.Pete for a couple of years and I love the St.Pete sound, but that's about it... I hated everything else about it. If you don't mind sacrificing consistent valves for a good sound, they're a good choice. The Miraphone 186, on the other hand is a great all-around horn; even beat up ones play great.

I currently own a Mirafone 186 BBb 5V from the 60's... and... a St. Pete 202N that is less than three years old. There is no way to compare these two horns but overall, my St. Pete outperforms the Mirafone in most settings. The Mirafone seems a bit more focused but the St. Pete has guts that the Mirafone can't touch.

The Mirafones have a reputation for being very consistant. I've had probably 50 of them through the shop in the last five years for various repairs. All of them with one exception have been fixable. It's true that the horns are consistant and tend to hold their value. But... don't count on simply dropping in a new rotor. There have been enough subtle changes in the horns over the years that any major rotor damage will probably result in changing the whole rotor/casing assembly. Prices for even 'beater' Mirafone 186 tubas seem to have bottomed out in the $1,500 range. $2,500 for one in descent condition. I wouldn't speculate that they will be worth ten years from now what they can be purchased used for today. Who knows what the economy has in store! Even though the Mirafones are consistant horns, it's still good advice to play it first before you buy. I added a 5th rotor to my 186 because of the typical sloppy response of he 2-3 rotor combinations that I've seen on several of these horns.

You can buy a new St Pete for about $3,200. Used ones in good condition are in the range of $2,000. They had a bad rap because of sloppy workmanship a few years back but the ones produced in the last four or five years seem to have had most of those issues corrected. Before I went shopping for a used one, I had a chat with 'Vinnie' and was more-or-less assured that the quality issues have been dealt with. The one I bought is less than three years old and demonstrates mechanical charactics as good as any horn I've had in the shop... including expensive hand-built horns. A new St Pete or one less than a few years old might be a good bet. But.. as always... play it before you buy it. I've not experienced any intonation problems with my St. Pete 202 that can't be reckoned with.

The King 1240/41 and 2340/41 tubas have been basically the same for 50 years. King seems to have gotten most things 'right'. There have been some subtle changes to the leadpipes, tuning slides, and bells.... but, for the most part, the same horn has had a very long production run. I've bought and sold dozens of these Kings over the last five years and have found them to be just as consistant as the Mirafones. In my opinion, you can pick up a King 1241/early 2341 that plays just as good as the new 2341 and save yourself a whopping bunch of money. At the prices the older 1241/early 2341 Kings usually go for (in the range of $1,000 to $1,000 depending on condition), it's almost impossible to go wrong. Not many intonation issues but I use my King for Dixieland music... not for chamber and small ensembles.

All that being said.... these three horns are as different as night and day. But, if I had to choose just one horn for everything, I think it would be the St Pete.

NOTE: I've just received an Allora 191 that might give them all a run for their money!