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tubashaman wrote:I work 10 hour days in the heat, and cant practice after 9pm, or before 7am, and i work about 30 minutes away, and so doing it on the tuba to start is a challenge.

I don't know about anyone else, but the most progress I made in multiple-tonguing was away from the horn. I would practice it while walking between classes, while driving around, or anywhere for that matter. After a while, I noticed it was much easier on the horn once my tongue was coordinated enough to do it. You can very easily practice this, even around others (as long as you don't do it too loudly). If you are still working in a tire shop, there should be enough background noise to allow you to practice it while you work.

If you drive 10 minutes to work, there's 10 minutes of buzzing practice time, great for tonguing exercises. Use any time like that, you'll find yourself doing a lot more practicing!

I lost my double tongue a week before I played "Carnival" with my hometown band. Ironically, it was a day before I had a lesson with Harvey. He gave me several suggestions, mainly that it was all in my head, and left me with confidence that it would come back quickly.

Well, I still can't double tongue the Carnival variation, the descending scale line doubled notes. Almost anything else is no problem, that all came back. Triple tonguing is no problem, aside from lack of practice.

like everything...practice slow.

I also had practiced the guh or kuh to develop the necessary muscles but don't overdo it. Make sure you don't isolate too much.

I also find that practicing with a mouthpiece or just away from the horn CAN help, but I can double tongue WAY faster without my horn than with it. So make sure you are doing the majority with the horn.

SLOW! Don't increase your speed until you can play it fast. Also, practice very slow and then practice at your threshold.

Just my idea.

First of all you should take a look at what the Arban book says about multiple tonguing. Also, I have heard that it is better and easier to start out triple tonguing rather than double. "They say" that it is better. About practicing: well, practice repeating the syllables over and over again whenever you can. I like the syllables dih-gih or tu-ku. Once again, I would start with triple tonguing. Dih-gih-dih and repeat. Have fun!

I started with triple. It just "feels" easier than double--it still does, to me. As if it rolls of the tounge easier. That doesn't mean that will be the case with everyone. The Arban section on multiple tounging does start with triple.

Like every other new technique, start slow. Start with eighth notes at around 100 or so. Play them very defined, and a bit separated... DA.. GA.. DA.. GA.. The emphasis is on making them (the DA and the GA) identical in volume, pitch, note shape, etc. You can work on speed anywhere, as you were told above. The summer I focused on multiple tounging I was working outside as maintenance for my local township (roadwork and such). As I was digging holes or swinging sledge hammers I was practicing the syllables. When you get your face to the horn, work on quality, then later speed that quality playing up (always with a metronome, of course)

Have fun!

tubashaman wrote:A "rule" in lessons we discussed, single tongue unless cant be done/it slows you down....because we both agree single tonguing sounds better and gives a rounder sound

I could probably get away with single tonguing mvt 3 of the plog, at quarter = 132

Maybe as a "rule" that is meant to be broken. There are many players who can sound effortless and even and round with the double tongue.

I mean, it is generally obvious to single tongue unless it slows you down, since single tonguing is the easiest. But I've met players who can't single tongue 16th notes past quarter = 122. Sometimes too, while single tonguing can be done at the correct tempo and not slow you down, a double tongue could be more in line with what the piece should sound like...all things considered.

Dean wrote:I started with triple. It just "feels" easier than double--it still does, to me. As if it rolls of the tounge easier. That doesn't mean that will be the case with everyone. The Arban section on multiple tounging does start with triple.



Have fun!

I find it interesting you said this, because I "think" anyway...that my teacher started with Triple as well. Yet most students seem to start with double...and probably just because it is more useful in the immediate sense.

There's definitely some truth to really handling your double tongue by getting used to the triple. Plus, then you develop triple AND double.

For triple tongue, I think I tend to use a set of "Dih Gah Duh"...for whatever reason........BUT it works very well. I prefer the softer "d" sound for the syllable because it ensures that (in my mind) the tone stays rounded. In triple tonguing, I have difficulty with Ta Ta Ka or Ta Ka Ta because my tongue is easily tripped up by using the same "tongue" for different parts of the pattern. When I use "Dih Gah Duh" (Do Gah Duh) I can still achieve round sound on all 3 parts, with little tripping up when going from the Duh to the Do(Dih). This is probably because the Do(Dih) is very similar in sound to the Duh but different enough that I have less difficulty.

Now.......my "method" is definitely up for debate...but it is definitely what works for me and hasn't messed me up yet....though of course, my triple tongue still needs works because frankly....I don't use it very often (minus etudes and goofing around )

I didn't learn double tonguing until I was pushing 50, and I can do it well enough, both on tuba and horn.

The "start slow" method simply did not work for me; I got all tongue-tied.

What DID work was to play two 16ths and an eighth, on the same pitch, as fast as I could go, one set at a time as opposed to continuously. (like the trumpet beginning to William Tell.) Then I moved to four 16ths and an eighth, again as fast as I could go, one set at a time instead of continuously. And I continued with that pattern of increasing numbers of fast notes. I can double-tongue anything I come across now without a problem, without ever having gone through that "do it slow first" methodology.

One thing you have to understand is that the tonguing has to be "explosive" both with tongue movement and air, at first. I was amazed at how much more I had to move my tongue in double-tonguing on tuba as opposed to horn. To do it cleanly on tuba, my tongue actually goes all the way back between my molars; on horn, I just have to sort of flick it. Big difference.

YMMV. I never had to work much on keeping triple-tonguing going, using the TuKuTu-TuKuTu way. Some people have trouble with one and not the other.

MA

Triple before double. D**-D**-G** or D**-G**-D**-G**...t's and k's are for higher voiced instruments. It's a muscle/reflex thing, pure and simple. Lower brain here, just repetition... Arban's was written for trumpet, adapted for trombone, further adapted for tuba - just concentrate on the patterns, not the (somewhat dated and instrument-specific, depending on the edition) advice given in the text.

I have not found too many ensemble parts that I cannot cleanly single-tongue, and I don't play solos except when asked.

Eric "who, as an amateur, needs multiple tongueing only once a year, or less" L.

One thing you have to understand is that the tonguing has to be "explosive" both with tongue movement and air, at first. I was amazed at how much more I had to move my tongue in double-tonguing on tuba as opposed to horn. To do it cleanly on tuba, my tongue actually goes all the way back between my molars; on horn, I just have to sort of flick it.

I find that most players that are having issues with multiple tounging are not blowing through the articulations and basically "choking" each note. Relaxation should be your ultimate goal..because the reason we double or triple tongue is to make the faster passages sound effortless..not hard. Good Luck!

MaryAnn wrote:What DID work was to play two 16ths and an eighth, on the same pitch, as fast as I could go, one set at a time as opposed to continuously. (like the trumpet beginning to William Tell.) Then I moved to four 16ths and an eighth, again as fast as I could go, one set at a time instead of continuously. And I continued with that pattern of increasing numbers of fast notes. I can double-tongue anything I come across now without a problem, without ever having gone through that "do it slow first" methodology.

This is the method that worked for me as well, although I wouldn't say that I can double anything I look at...unless I play it slow, which I can do now...

MaryAnn wrote:One thing you have to understand is that the tonguing has to be "explosive" both with tongue movement and air, at first. I was amazed at how much more I had to move my tongue in double-tonguing on tuba as opposed to horn. To do it cleanly on tuba, my tongue actually goes all the way back between my molars; on horn, I just have to sort of flick it. Big difference.

jdsalas wrote:I find that most players that are having issues with multiple tounging are not blowing through the articulations and basically "choking" each note. Relaxation should be your ultimate goal..because the reason we double or triple tongue is to make the faster passages sound effortless..not hard. Good Luck!

I'm glad MA and jds have mentioned air. I've always found that when I or a student are having double tonguing problems on the horn but not on the mouthpiece, 9 times out of 10 fixing the air fixes the articulation. As jds said, you have to blow through the articulations. I'll go even one better: you have to blow your articulations through the horn; you can't just blow them into the mouthpiece and make them come out the bell. Don't get labored or heavy, but support your sound. Treat it like you are projecting a mp to the top corner of the balcony of a large hall.

Like many of the things we do on musical instruments, double tonguing is as much a mental concept as it is a physical ability.