Middle C and Me

[The Jackson]

I have the same issue with the 186 I use (and it's even worse on the YBB-641). It's a hard partial to slip into on these horns. It's been less of an issue for me now, but it's still difficult (Trying to doing the first movement of the RVW? Ugh.)

I believe it is the horn, because I have had considerably less trouble with that range on other horns.

[The Jackson]

I've got nothing on that. I did get some improvement from switching from using 1st valve to open.

[Rick Denney]

Have you tried playing the C open? For me, that's an easier partial than playing it first valve, and it's better in tune.

B to C can be played 2 to open.

Let's face it. Partials are close in this range, and that's why it's easy to miss notes. The buzz has to be spot-on. The pulse from your buzz has to be timed perfectly with the pulse reflecting back from the bell opening. Otherwise, the buzz is not reinforced and you can lose the resonance (i.e., lose the buzz altogether). It takes 0.01724 seconds for your pulse to reach the effective bell opening, and another interval of the same amount for it to return. If you are playing a 29-Hz pedal Bb, the return pulse reflection will arrive just in time to reinforce the very next pulse from your lips. A 262-Hz middle C has buzz pulses every 0.003817 seconds. You'll have to buzz nine of those pulses on rhe open bugle before receiving a reinforcing return pulse, which means your buzz has to be within a small percentage of error or the lack of resonance will undermine your buzz. If you play it first valve, the tubing is longer, and it will take 10 pulses before receiving a return pulse. That's why the open fingering is a bit easier, though the effect varies with the intonation characteristics of the tuba.

And the first-valve 10th partial is naturally less well-tuned than the open 9th partial, assuming a perfect instrument. A pedal Bb is 29.135 Hz, and the 9th partial is 262.215 Hz, which is 3.9 cents sharp. A pedal Ab (the bugle plus the first valve) is 25.9564 Hz, and the 10th partial of that is 259.564 Hz, which is almost 14 cents flat. No instrument is perfect, but this lets you know that even an instrument with theoretically ideal intonation won't be equally tempered on all partials and will be even worse when adding valves. When playing something like the RVW, the middle C on the piano (or in the orchestra) is establishing that pitch, and that may not be where that notes wants to be on the tuba.

(On an F tuba, it's six pulses, which is why it's easier.)

All of that, of course, doesn't help you, except to realize the importance of an accurate buzz in the upper register, and the understanding that even a great instrument may require non-standard fingerings and slide pulls. To correct that 14-cent-flat first-valve C, for example, would require pushing the first valve slide in about 1-1/4 inches. That is, in fact, how much I typically push that slide in when playing C's (both the 5th and 10th-partials of the bugle and first valve) on my Miraphone. Or, you can play it open and it will probably be close enough for unconscious adjustment. Or, train your embouchure to the point where you can buzz it accurately, resonance or not. That will take AIR, by the way, to overcome the effect of the returning pulses.

So, how well can you buzz that C on the open mouthpiece? If you can buzz it, it will play on the instrument at some combination of valves and slide positions. But if your buzz starts wrong and slides into pitch (like mine does), then you'll be more open to problems. Ask me how I know.

Rick "whose RVW hacking is done on an F tuba" Denney

[eupher61]

Can you sing the pitch accurately? Can you buzz it on the mouthpiece accurately?

If you can't sing it, you possibly can't buzz it; if you can't buzz it, it won't come out of the horn. Work the buzz, do etudes on the mouthpiece only, slurs, Arban studies, whatever you can to work on that pitch. For every 2 minutes working on that range, take 30 seconds and do things lower, to save chops. It could be the horn, I somehow doubt it, it could be the mouthpiece, but I also doubt it, IF the rest of the horn plays well for you.

[tbn.al]

To correct that 14-cent-flat first-valve C, for example, would require pushing the first valve slide in about 1-1/4 inches. That is, in fact, how much I typically push that slide in when playing C's (both the 5th and 10th-partials of the bugle and first valve) on my Miraphone. Or, you can play it open and it will probably be close enough for unconscious adjustment.

Rick "whose RVW hacking is done on an F tuba" Denney

Thank you Rick Denny. I have been playing my middle C's open for a couple of years because I noticed I was pulling my main slide in 3/4 " when playing the corresponding note on trombone. After I made the switch to playing it open my middle C troubles went away. I appreciate the validation. I would never have been able to figure it out mathmatically like you did. That's really cool. Those partials are close on BBb but I'm too old to switch.

[iiipopes]

As far as which partial and which valve to use, the alternates to 1st valve for middle C, as you use with 2nd space C are:
open -- 9th partial of the Bb series;
1+3 or 4 -- 12th partial of the low F series.

What kind of mouthpiece do you use? If you have too much of a funnel or too wide of a throat, it could be a resonance problem, since funnels tend to filter out high even harmonics, which the 10th is.

On reading this thread, I got my 186 out, and, forgive me, but even not being completely warmed up, I had no trouble with middle C in any aspect, and using all valve alternate fingerings. Then again, mine is a 1971 detachable bell variant with a retrofit St Pete bell, which is a little shorter stack, so the main tuning slide had to be lengthened. This probably put some nodes in a slightly different place, but if that were the problem, I'd expect the note to speak on one or more valve combinations, but not all of them equally well.

You've said there's nothing wrong with the horn. I had a "dead" bottom line Gb until I had the horn gone over and even the most unlikely joints, like the leadpipe into the valve block, resoldered to make sure there were no leaks, and then I "force fed" some valve oil to seal the second rotor after measuring to find the anti-node was probably in the vicinity of the second valve. I took the second valve slide out, wiped it down dry to get all the slide grease off of it, cleaned the interior of the tubes of all valve grease, then dripped valve oil directly on the rotor and shoved the valve slide in. I then heard the slight "bubble hiss" of the oil making its way around the valve, and when it quit, I took the slide out, lubed it properly, reinserted it with the valve down so as to not cause any more pressure, and a combination of getting the joints resoldered and making sure the valves sealed got my Gb back.

Also, as Matt Walters at Dillons recommended to me, I really recommend you try a Curry D cup in your preferred cup diameter with a 186, as it has great consistency of tone, good definition down low, and it helps you conserve air. Those who can instantaneously put two tons of air through a horn might think it's a bit stuffy, but for most of us mere mortals it is a great match to a 186. The bottom of the cup, being a hybrid and slightly curved, gives enough feedback that might help you center the high C, while keeping breadth, core and definition of tone, in spite of the fact some might say those are not necessarily consistent terms, as the hybrid cup does not filter out all of the even overtones a pure funnel cup tends to do.

Let's see, with 1st valve down, the speaking length of the horn with 1st valve down is somewhere between 245 and 250 inches, and middle C is the 10th partial, so the first node is @ 24 1/2 inches from the rim of your mouthpiece going in, and the same amount thereafter, and the first anti-node would be half that, roughly between 12 to 13 inches in and then every 24 to 25 inches thereafter. You include the length of the 1st valve tubing in your measurements, and if on one of these points there is a brace that is interfering with an antinode, or a solder joint that doesn't look right and may have a leak, or even possibly a dent or a pinhole that is letting the antinode dissipate, that may very well be the culprit that knocks out your middle C. Since there aren't that many notes above it that are played on a BBb tuba with any regularity, it is not surprising you don't find any commonality with any lack of response of other notes, and as you go down, the space between the nodes and antinodes gets longer, so the chances of any other note's nodes or antinodes hitting exactly the same place that may be dissipating your middle C are slim.

Good luck! It took me a couple of months to chase down my Gb, but it's just a finite mechanical tool, so it's there someplace.