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I've had my Thor for about a week now, and I've really started to get a good feel of the horn. I think it's time now to start getting back into the swing of things, so I ask you, when you first switched from BBb to CC, what helped you the most in relearning fingerings? I'm hesitant to write fingerings on the music, as I don't want that to end up being a crutch, but perhaps it's the best.

Any advice would be great!

Practice fairly easy etudes...Bordogni, Arban, Tyrell, etc. There's plenty of material that's not terribly techincally challenging so you can focus on the right fingers. Practice them often...if possible, many short sessions per day instead of one long session. It will take some time, and depend on how much effort you put in. There's no magic formula...repetition will lead to good results before you know it!

Enjoy the new horn...it's a beauty!

When I switched over I kind of "threw" myself into it. I put myself in positions that meant I had to learn difficult music perfectly on CC. For example, a week after I got my Miraphone 1291 I played in a quintet performance of Bach's Fugue in G Minor. It's a pretty tough piece when you are just getting the hang of the fingerings, but it really helped me quickly switch over.

Overall, I tried really hard to not write any fingerings in my music. After about two or so weeks it will be like second nature with a few minor slip-ups. However, you have to be totally committed to the new fingerings. Also, don't focus too much on scales at first, but make sure that you learn them once you really get the hang of things. Once it's all over you'll be really happy you went through all of this. Good Luck!

I am usually not fond of rigid routines, but in this case it is good to keep playing the same exercises. I think it helps lock in fingerings. Just my opinion, but I think that the brain/eye/finger coordination benefits from repeating the same written music. Obviously, choose music to repeat that will benefit the technical and musical skills you would be working on anyway. You can expect quick and steady progress on fingering changes (with steady practice). Once the fingerings become instant-- you can become more flexible in what you practice.

Clark inspired chromatic warm ups (like the first exercises after buzzing in the "Brass Gym") were one of the things most useful to me when I was relearning fingerings.

While I agree with every one, I say go all the way to that first book you had in junior high. Play those very simple tunes Yankee Doodle, Twinkle Twinkle, Hot Cross buns, and even loch Lamond. Once you go through these easy tunes then move onto the easier etudes. We always have to walk before we run so don't jump ahead and frustrate yourself just be patient. I also agree with try to stay away from writing in fingers, if you do use pencil so you can erase them after you get the fingers right a few times.

I started out on trumpet in grade school. I also had a few years of piano. So the real switch for me was to a BBb souzy in marching band. When I got to college and played a school CC horn, I just mentally thought notes, not automatic fingerings, and for the fingerings mentally skipped a line and remembered my trumpet fingerings. Now, after all these years, I had to borrow a CC for a couple of weeks some time ago when my Besson was in the shop, before I got the 186, and switching back for a couple of rehearsals had a few cracked notes.

The hardest part for me was making the mental connection of "when I blow an open note, it sounds like this." Just trying to remember which pitches come out with which fingerings. And the only thing that fixed that for me was playing -- a lot.

I know that sounds horribly over-simplified, but really, you know exactly what sounds you're trying to make and what you want to hear. It's just a matter of doing the right things to make that happen.

Wasn't there a Monty Python bit about how to play the piano? Something like "press the right keys in the right order -- like a pianist."

Lots of good advice here already.

One suggestion - and this isn't just semantics. You aren't "switching" to CC. You are (or at least should be) "adding" CC to your tools.

The suggestion to completely immerse yourself in CC right now is a good one - but you will no doubt have the opportunity/need/requirement to continue to be able to play BBb in the future.

Being in total control of the BBb and being able to make music consistantly well on it is probably the biggest factor to how quickly you'll get used to CC and progress on it. Having said that . . .
Familiarity with new overtone series, new horn, etc.: the whole kiddies tunes thing works great. Yankee Doodle, Mary Had a Little Lamb, Dixie, etc. that you know the melody for without having to read- figure them out and play them from memory without looking at music at all. Try a dark practice room where there are no visual distractions, so that you concentrate totally on the sound. Play them in easy keys first, then play them all chromatically in all the different ranges and keys on the instrument.

Reading music: I recommend that you find a method book and/or etudes that you are totally unfamiliar with, and learn how to make the CC work from you with them. That way, you will be treating the CC tuba as a new instrument (which it is, for you at this time) and you will reduce your chaces of a brain relapse into BBb fingerings, etc. that you would have if you played things you've worked a lot on the BBb horn.

If you've done good prep work on the BBb, adding CC (or tuba in any other key) to your arsenal will be much, much easier.

Although I never made the jump from BBb to CC, I did sell my BBb tuba in college to buy my 983...so I jumped from BBb to Eb. The key for me was to go back and play etudes and exercises I had already learned, adjusting not just to the fingerings, but also to the horn--finding where the partials sit, etc. You'll be surprised how quickly you figure it out.




Of course, these days, I never have a fingering slip up with my Eb....but when I pick up a BBb tuba....

As often is the case, I have completely different advice.

I would not repeat etudes; it's to easy to memorize them, and what you want is to learn the fast response of note-on-page to right-buttons-down. To do that...sight read. A lot. If you have a music publishing program like Finale, type in a tune like Good King Wenseslas and then transcribe it into all keys. You'll know for sure whether you hit the right notes because the piece is so easy to hear, and you'll learn all the enharmonic fingerings.

I also isolate pieces by which tuba I'm playing...F tuba has its own pieces and CC tuba has its own pieces. I get crossways if I try to play one of my F tuba pieces on CC, and vice-versa. I know what pitch I want, but I push the wrong valves to get it. Now, if it was a french horn, I could just put all the valves down and play any note, but unfortunately it's a tuba.

When I've had a performance on an unfamiliar key of tuba, I've not been too proud to write in fingerings for a few notes. It's better than clamming them.

MA

Count me in as one of those who believes in "cutting the cord" and forgetting about playing BBflat any more. Leave that for the folks with a great horn that happens to be in BBflat - - You've got a great horn which happens to be in CC, so focus on it and don't wonder "gee, maybe this piece would sound better on BBflat...". I go through that enough as it is when I'm trying to decide if I should play something on CC or F. The chances of you needing or wanting to play something in BBflat in the civilian world is pretty much nil.

I would also agree with going "back to basics". For example, if you've "learned" (who ever really completely "learns"?) the first volume of the Rochut/ Bordogni/ whatever, go back to number 2 (I just have this thing about #1...) and play 'em all again. When you get to number 60 (which, of course you won't be able to play 'cause you now have a CC and still don't have the fingerings down tight...) head back to #2 and start all over again.

One last note - a lot of folks think they've made the transition after they've learned some tough repertoire (and have bashed stuff like Rochut for awhile...), but the true test comes in being able to sight-read in clutch situations. Once that happens, you've left BB-flat behind for good (unless, of course you want to switch back...)

terry solomonson

Slamson wrote:Count me in as one of those who believes in "cutting the cord" and forgetting about playing BBflat any more. Leave that for the folks with a great horn that happens to be in BBflat - - You've got a great horn which happens to be in CC, so focus on it and don't wonder "gee, maybe this piece would sound better on BBflat...". I go through that enough as it is when I'm trying to decide if I should play something on CC or F. The chances of you needing or wanting to play something in BBflat in the civilian world is pretty much nil.

Playing nothing but CC while getting used to it is one thing, but the chances of needing to play BBb in the future are never nil. The OP appears to be a college student, maybe a future public school band director. Opportunities to play sousaphone to make extra $$, demonstrating for young students on Bb instruments, etc. will always be around.

Having said that, the difference for this issue isn't what you do from this point forward, but what you've already done. If you've really got the BBb system down, you won't lose it, no matter what else you do. If you haven't, then you probably aren't ready to start playing CC.

But, since you've already shelled out the $$ for a Thor, that's really moot. So have fun!

i played rochuts just because i had the majority of them memorized and relating the right tones to the new fingers helped a lot. as for the "forgetting B-flat" discussion; i played in BBb for so long that i can't forget the fingerings. and there are a lot of Bb horns that i enjoy playing including sousaphone at school. there are also a TON of dixie style things my quintet plays and i rather enjoy getting the right sound with a sousie in Bb. my $.02

-CT

My advice is with most others: leave the BBb alone for a LONG time. Once you have had a few years (months, for some of you...) of playing only CC, then you can probably play a BBb in addition to the CC.

But the main reason I posted this was to share a recent experience. This past season, the MET Orchestra performed Tchaikovsy's Fourth Symphony, which I hadn't played since high school (of course, on BBb!).

Well, let's just say that it took a LOT of repetitions before the BBb fingerings were gone...

CJH

I'm using a very effective means of adding Eb (starting from Bb). I do NOT necessarily recommend this method for everyone:

a) have open heart surgery (this entails 8 weeks of recovery before you can play again - actually, I've cut that to 6 weeks)

b) ship all of your existing horns to the repair shop for maintenance

c) dig through your music library to find something like Rubanks. Or, perhaps the first part of Arbans. Or, whatever you happen to have that is VERY elementary and pretends to be instructive. Something that progresses systematically through the keys is necessary

d) stop worrying about how elementary it is, and just play it. If it's *really* elementary, you will play it correctly on the first pass. If not...perhaps it's not as elementary as you thought...

Seriously - the point is: just pick up the new tuba and try to remember how you learned to play the last one. Do it again. It will go faster (because there's a lot of material that the two horns have in common) - but beware of skipping steps. Take the steps as fast as you can...but no faster.

e) as soon as you feel secure (say 2-5 performances) with the new key - go back and brush up the old one. If you can't switch back and forth easily, then you don't know EITHER key well enough. And, no - the solution is NOT to abandon the old key - no matter how much snob appeal that might hold for you.

Slamson wrote:Count me in as one of those who believes in "cutting the cord" and forgetting about playing BBflat any more. Leave that for the folks with a great horn that happens to be in BBflat - - You've got a great horn which happens to be in CC, so focus on it and don't wonder "gee, maybe this piece would sound better on BBflat...". I go through that enough as it is when I'm trying to decide if I should play something on CC or F. The chances of you needing or wanting to play something in BBflat in the civilian world is pretty much nil.

I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of full-time paying & playing gigs in this country are with military bands. If you're skilled and lucky enough to play in one, you WILL play BBb from time to time . . . it's called the sousaphone. The flip side to that is even if you're not in a military band, you'll play whatever they ask you to play if they're cutting the check. I've done paying gigs on all the different tubas (F, EEb, CC, BBb), and I'm sure most pros have, too. You have to make a living. The bottom line is, you're a tuba player. If they pay you to play it on a (F, EEb, CC, BBb) tuba, you'd better be able to do it.
OTOH, if you're going to play in a community band or other non-paying gig, I guess you can play what you want.

Slamson wrote:One last note - a lot of folks think they've made the transition after they've learned some tough repertoire (and have bashed stuff like Rochut for awhile...), but the true test comes in being able to sight-read in clutch situations. Once that happens, you've left BB-flat behind for good (unless, of course you want to switch back...)

terry solomonson

This hits the nail right on the head.

Some very good advice above. Let me add a couple of things, products of my own transition experience.

1) Spend a lot of your time working on music that is new and unfamiliar to you. That way you avoid having to relearn stuff, which can tie you up. But make sure it's fairly melodic material - otherwise it's harder to know you're getting it right. I think the phenomenon to avoid is called "negative transference" -- any Psych majors out there please correct me.

2) If you can already play trumpet music in treble clef, great. Pull out some trumpet books and use regular Bb trumpet fingerings. If you can't, consider adding that complexity to your regimen. I think it worked for me in part because it took me back in my mind to my first instrument, and also got me into a kind of transposition mode - thinking about changing clefs instead of "now 1 is 0, and 2 is 1-2, and - uh..."

3) Don't be in a hurry to go back to BBb, but someday you should. Six weeks, six months, six years - whatever, that's up to you. But someday you may need to play a sousaphone, as already pointed out, or maybe your horn will throw a rod and you'll need a substitute tuba and alas! all you can find is a BBb. Be prepared.

I didn't feel like reading all the posts before writing this, so if it was said then I apologize.

I will probably be in disagreement among people who believe in isolating horn fingerings. A new horn is a different horn and so you should know the fingerings for that horn. If you know your horn well, you should be able to play any piece of music for it, regardless if you've played it on a different keyed instrument.

Something that can really help you break your BBb auto finger abilities is to play things that you have played well already on BBb tuba. This is often the most FRUSTRATING thing you can do, but it can battle a lot of automation you have developed. It is not easy, and will make you angry, but I believe it helps break fingering habits the fastest. I did this often when I switched from BBb to CC and even when I began learning F. Each of those horns are different and require a different "finger thought process". My professor had suggested this as well...so I'm not the only one crazy enough to do this.

So try relearning things you have already played.

Also, when you are playing scales, try to learn them without reading music. Let your brain do the work. Sometimes we so caught up in reading music while learning a new keyed horn, we will go to the music before having a good concept of the horn. So while your learning to read music on the new toy, make sure to do chromatics, scales...as many things as you can from memory and from "figuring it out". Once you "know" the feel of your horn, music reading will come more natural and be quicker. (as mentioned earlier, if you really understood how the BBb horn worked, harmonic series etc, and structure of scales and how they feel on a tuba, then it shouldn't be a terribly difficult transition).

Good luck! learning a new key horn is VERY fun in my opinion. A different challenge than we're used to.