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Well guys i got another horn to replace the Kalison. It's a 1968 Conn 25J in Satin Silver. It's get a few small things to straightin out like the bell and a valve but, overall is a great horn. It's a beast. I went to two band camps the folowing 2 weeks (one of which started 30 minutes after i got it) and made the top band on it so, it must sound pretty good. I'll add some pictures later. All of the director at the camp loved it. One was Mr. Jesse Leyva the Henderson State University band director and the other was Dr. timothy rhea of Texas A and M and both loved it. so yeah. ill post pics later

Are you sure you want to replace the Kalison with it? The DS is a good all-around 4/4 CC (if you had a good one) that can work in all but the largest environments. I agree that a massive 25J can put a better bottom on a large band. However, do you really want to try to play that beast in a brass quintet, lighter orchestra rep (assuming you go that route) or for solos on a college audition? It seems to me that the two horns could complement each other. When I had my 2145 and and started suffering from "big horn lust" I got an inexpensive Martin 6/4. I don't think I ever got any paying gigs on the Martin, but it was fun for what it was. Kinda still wish I had it, but it was very much a niche horn.

MartyNeilan wrote:Are you sure you want to replace the Kalison with it?

I'm guessing that Andrew is on the 'must sell old to buy new" economic model.

The 25J should be a boomer, that's for sure. Enjoy!

Rather amuses me that whenever anyone talks of replacing their 4/4 with a 6/4 they are cautioned against. Which is best all depends on the individual's situation and personal sound concept.

My experience is that I use my 6/4 Neptune more than my 4/4 PT-20 and the larger tuba is far more popular with ensembles and audience. In fact often when I have taken the smaller CC to a gig to be 'sensitive' to the music, or size of group, I have been met with obvious disappointment for not taking the Neptune.

If I could only afford to keep one tuba, it would without hesitation be the BAT

A shallower cup mouthpiece can always be used to more focus the tone on a big tuba, but nothing can be done to broaden the tone of a small one.

I agree with Neptune. I always prefer my 20J (a twin brother to your 25J), over other tubas. I've used it in Concert bands, quintets, and even for solos and I love it, and the audience does too. HAve fun with it

More agreement here. I use my 5/4 Rudy BBb which is reputedly a 6/4 for almost all of my gigs. I only use my 4/4 186 recording bass on the back of the truck for parades. Even outdoors the Rudy has real presence. I've never seriously played a CC, much less a 6/4 CC but in my experience the large German BBb's can be used in any situation (except on the back of a truck) if you have enough air and good control.

Andrew said:

Well guys i got another horn to replace the Kalison.

Now unless you need to get your money out of a horn, or have a wife that is going to limit the number you have to say, 5, why replace anything?

Secondarily, Conn 2xJ's are at the very least just plain fun, big and impressive looking. They are also Bb horns, not C, so for the interests of your studies both may very well be needed. As for playing the Conn in a small ensemble, I did just that for many years in a quintet as it was my only horn. I did learn to blend and play well without being overpowering.

Perhaps you made those top positions in the bands not because of your horn....perhaps there is another reason....just a thought.

Rob "besides if the price of brass goes through the roof the Conn is a good investment"

Greg wrote:I think it would be safe to say that my point as well as Marty's is that a 4/4 is a more versatile instrument capable of producing colors of sound that are more suitable for a wider variety of ensembles. Again, it's just an opinion.

Greg, Certainly all just opinions depending on our personal sound concept, playing circumstances and personal attributes (as any tuba just amplifies what we make at the mouthpiece). You are completely entitled to your opinion - I was just trying to illustrate that it is not everyones view.

In my experience (and of course just my opinion) the 4/4 CC like most multi-purpose tools is a compromise. Does not provide the broad bass foundation of a BAT, or the clarity of of a bass tuba. If the player can afford two tubas, I feel better results come from using a BAT (CC/BBb) complimented with a bass tuba (Eb/F) than try to use a 4/4 CC to cover it all. As for most of us, the majority of our playing is in the back row, having just a BAT makes a lot of sense.

I'd venture there are still PLENTY of 2nd tier and smaller orchestra players who do just fine with a 4/4 tuba. Fact is, many (won't say most) smaller orchestra string sections are overpowered by brass anyway. A BAT looks cool (at least a Yorkophone type thing, I'm not sure about a 1968 25J with damage and a bad valve, even if it IS silver) but why is it necessary? The DS should be fine for most college groups, I did just fine with a good (but short on strings) college orchestra on a Piggy, as well as a couple very good volunteer community orchestras that were NOT short on strings.

I'd take the 25J for dixie playing in a heartbeat. Wait, no I wouldn't...I don't want to have to carry and hold the damned thing.

eupher61 wrote:...I'd venture there are still PLENTY of 2nd tier and smaller orchestra players who do just fine with a 4/4 tuba... [snip] ...I did just fine with a good (but short on strings) college orchestra on a Piggy, as well as a couple very good volunteer community orchestras that were NOT short on strings...

What he said.

So where did my old Kalison go? Just curious.

Wow, this went a lot farther than I intended it to go.
I wish Andrew the best with his new Conn. There is just something about that "big tuba sound" that makes you feel warm and fuzzy all over.

I dont see how having a 6/4 would be frustrating, as I have a 6/4 and play it on a regular basis. Who cares what bass trombone players think. They are not tuba players.

All depends on the person and the situation is how I feel.

Kayla "a tuba/bass trombone player" Lewis

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TUbajohn20J wrote:Who cares what bass trombone players think. They are not tuba players.

I'm going to take a guess and say you do NOT play the tuba for a living. I'd even go so far as to say that you do not play in any group where you actually have to THINK about how your sound fits. If you DID, you would know that it is not all about tuba in an ensemble setting. That's why it's called an ENSEMBLE and not a group that backs YOU up.

Chamber Musician wrote:If I were to bring in a 6/4 BAT, it would take about 5 minutes to tick off the entire bass and celli sections, not to mention receive some serious palm treatment from the man on the podium.

This assumes that playing a 6/4 is all about being louder. If kept under control, a 6/4 can play quietly and the soft cushion it can put under an ensemble played such I find so appealing. It does not necessarily MAKE you play louder, any more than a powerful car makes you drive faster. It is how you control and use it. I see playing a 6/4 all about a richer tone, rather than necessarily more volume.

All the same, if you are happy with a 4/4 and so is your orchestra, that is just fine. Good luck with your new appointment

TexTuba wrote:

TUbajohn20J wrote:Who cares what bass trombone players think. They are not tuba players.

I'm going to take a guess and say you do NOT play the tuba for a living. I'd even go so far as to say that you do not play in any group where you actually have to THINK about how your sound fits.

Wrong.

TexTuba wrote:If you DID, you would know that it is not all about tuba in an ensemble setting. That's why it's called an ENSEMBLE and not a group that backs YOU up.

What does this have to do with playing a 6/4 over a 4/4? If one chooses to bring a BAT, instead of a 4/4, to rehearsal, they can! I know it's not all about the tuba in an ensemble. To me, 6/4's have a richer sound at all volumes. You are assuming if somebody brought a BAT to rehearsal, they would automatically play louder to try and stick out of the ensemble. I am going to quote what Neptune said. "If kept under control a 6/4 can play quietly. It does not necessarily MAKE you play louder, any more than a powerful car makes you drive faster. It is how you control and use it. I see playing a 6/4 all about a richer tone, rather than necessarily more volume." I agree 100% with that. And it does not matter what the cello section thinks about your BAT. As long as you use it correctly and musically, you can bring whatever tuba you want, rather a 6/4 or 4/4, to rehearsal.

the elephant wrote:If you cannot play all music in all situations on a 4/4 contrabass tuba and at least make due (even if you are not particularly happy) then you are ready for neither an F nor a BAT. Learn to play high, low, soft and loud FIRST on one do-all horn. Then go esoteric with a stable of tubas that offer you a palette of tones and tessituras. Just be fully able to control them first by having learned to play the tuba correctly. Do not rely on your horns to do the job for you.

</rant>

I'm in total agreement with your entire post. I've selected the one part of your "rant" that I feel needs to be repeatedly said.

I joined a few local community bands (~40 pc, that play mostly marches and showtunes with the occasional concert piece added in), and started playing on a 3/4 size Besson Bb '$150 ebay special' that I picked up for a practice horn during college. Most of the concerts are played outside, and after the first one, one of my friends in the auduence said that there was no tuba sound. So I decided to get another horn off of ebay. I recently picked up a bell front Conn 20J, and both myself and my directors are really enjoying the large bass sound. Initially I was worried about overblowing the band, but I was assured that I have a good sense of balance, and can feel free to play as loud as I please when the dynamic is forte and above.

I think that in this case it is more of getting the correct horn for the job, rather than letting he horn do the job for me