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Isn't there also sight-reading at the state level? There certainly is one state directly north of you. Wouldn't this theoretical high school student feel more comfortable sight-reading on C than F (which I would have to assume would have been a fairly recent purchase)?

It's also a pretty good bet that the sight-reading for TMEA would "lay" better on a contrabass tuba.

But I'll still give the obvious answer...the theoretical student should play whatever horn they sound the best on and are most comfortable with. Key notwithstanding.

If I, as a high school student, met another high school student who OWNED two tubas, I, as a high school student, would have to beat them*. At the XMEA level, showing up with fancy horns is a great way to make your competitors mad. I would bet dollars to donuts that there will be a lot of beat up, school-owned instruments in the tuba auditions, especially in a state with as much economic diversity as Texas.

NOBODY needs an F tuba in high school. If Arnold Jacobs and Oystein Baadsvik somehow met and conceived a child, he/she would not need an F tuba in high school.



*failing that, substitute a good ***-whooping

Hell, Biggs...James knows of more than one...maybe we can get some names and put an ol' fashioned country ***-whoopin' up on 'em?

Seriously, James...you know of some (more than one) high school students who owned a C and an F in high school? I didn't meet any at Interlochen, either time I was there for the summer, and those weren't exactly kids without resources.

You must be a joy to your private teacher.

Somebody please tell me I'm not the only person who feels this way.

James,

I made first chair All-State Honors Band in Indiana every year I was in high school on a BBb horn. I never even knew there was such a thing as a CC tuba, let alone an F, until my tuba prof handed me one and told me that's what I would play now that I was in college. Of course this was back in the dark ages of the 1980s...

Eric "who has played every key of tuba and now is right back where he started" L.

60 Selected Studies for BBb Tuba, Kopprasch, Robert King Music

Dude, this is the book for Texas' All-State auditions. There is no reason that these should be played on anything BUT a contrabass tuba. I could see these as a good way to work on "low stuff" for F, but James, come on....

Stop making these "possibilities" up....

tubashaman wrote:Okay, ASSUMING a student (I have known some who have) has a CC and F and is in highschool trying out for the TMEA All state band, which horn (as an adjudicator, assuming the F has a solid low range) would be preferred to hear in an audition.

Wouldn't the simple answer to this be "The horn he will be playing in the performance"? Why would a judge ever want to hear someone audition on a horn they don't actually intead to perform on.* The audition music is clearly written for a contrabass tuba, not a bass. The amount of band literature that actually requires bass tuba is slim to nil (not requires in the sense that you would rather play your bass tuba to make a part lie better or easier to play, but to mean that it is orchestrated in such a way that the band is small and a small bass tuba is inteaded to be the bass voice). Even if this were not the case, this is not the kind of music that gets programmed for this kind of events, so auditioning on an F tuba really shouldn't be considered.

To me, this is the same as a NASCAR driver qualifying for a race with dragster but actually doing the race in is NASCAR car**. They're both technically race cars, but you would never intend to actually race a dragster around a NASCAR course.

*Circumstances can affect this, such as a student getting a new horn after the audition (or before and isn't comfortable auditioning on it yet) or if the auditionee is unable to use their own horn. Situations like these that force someone to use unfamiliar equipment instead of a choice being made.

**I dont' actually pay attention to racing, so my apologies for any misinformation.

Full of misinformation as usual, James.

Georg Kopprasch was barely born in the late 18th century. The first of his etudes were published in 1832 and were in two groups of 60 each. The ones we use in the tuba book were the Op.6 for Cor basse (low horn). They were meant to feature the new use of valves in the low register...before then, low register playing was almost exclusively the open pitches of the natural horn (I-V-I-V-I).

Comparing the Haydn Trumpet Concerto, which was composed for a natural trumpet using crooks, to the Kopprasch studies is just ridiculous. Kopprasch's intent was, in fact, exactly the opposite...look, horn players, at what you can accomplish with the use of Herr Stolzel's new valves!

I'm not going to say anything about your switching horns in the middle of a wind ensemble piece...suffice it to say I disagree with the practice.

tubashaman wrote:IM going to open a can of worms...

but I try (and TRY) to practice and work up etudes (and some excerpts) on both CC and F, to learn the music, not the fingerings....and it helps me not confuse the fingerings....though i do get a couple bloops I get to play it on both horns...I learned this from a friend who is still in college, has some pretty awesome gigs, and wins competitions such as Falcone and ITEC level stuff.....and it works for him

That's absolutely fine, and I believe many people have suggested that on the forum many times. But practicing etudes on both horns is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from actually taking a bass tuba into an audition full of contrabass tuba etudes. If this were a practice that is highly recommended and successful, we would see more tuba players auditioning Prokofiev 5, Fountains, Ride, and all the other typical CC tuba excerpts. I'm well aware of people who like to practice CC excerpts on F and F excerpts on CC, but I'm not aware of them actually using the other horn for the audition.

tubashaman wrote:Also....though off topic, in a real world setting, a orchestra director that knows a hint about tuba might ask for a certian part that one would generally play on contrabass tuba to be played on bass tuba.....I did so in the solo in Daughertys Niagara Falls, and was going to in my solos on raise the roof......I said no to raise the roof (daugherty) because I had just gotten it and didnt want to bring 2 tubas on a cramped bus with the wind ensemble....

But when (my choice) playing the solos in those pieces on F, they say the F sounds better on the solos james, and the CC sounds great in the band stuff, and I got a few compliments on using the right horn and making the switch when necessary.

As I said in my previous post, we were discussing an audition situation where the auditionee had the choice of using two horns instead of a performance situation. A director might ask you to play a contrabass excerpt on a bass tuba. A director also might ask you to play it on a euphonium. You should be prepared to play anything anyway that you could be asked, within reason. This does not mean you should play it if you are not asked to. This came up in the Fountains topic where there is the printed version, and the version which seems to make slightly more sense. It is typically best to perform what is exactly on the page and not assume they want you the play it the other way. There is always a chance they could ask you, which is why you practice it both ways.

tubashaman wrote:And also for those of you geeks out there like me.....Kopprasch is actually a method book for French Horn, written in the late 18th century by Kopprasch. Of course then, horns had crooks instead of valves....which makes it seem more impressive that horns and trumpets played some of these passages on the open bugle (i.e. Haydn Trumpet Concerto

So you are suggesting that it should be common practice for tuba players to audition on Kopprasch etudes playing a valveless French Horn?

tubashaman wrote:I have voluenteered to be a judge for a regional audition

Curious...they accept volunteers for judges? What is the procedure involved in volunteering to judge a regional audition? Are there any qualifications to being a regional judge in Texas? I sent an email to Ross Boothman, the state band division chair, just to find out if they might need any more...I have a couple weeks vacation time saved up. Maybe Tom SoRelle over at Frenship high could be some help.

And here I thought TMEA was an incredibly serious endeavor...at least, I was always told is was by friends from Texas. All I was ever allowed to do here in podunk ol' Oklahoma was proctor rooms and run judges sheets around...even after I had my masters degree. Thanks for clearing that up for me, James.

Todd S. "whose troll alarm is starting to twitch" Malicoate

When I auditioned for chair placement at TMEA, I played my 20J, did just fine. Most people there used BBb tubas. Only a few had C tubas. But i'd def. go with the C instead of the F thats for sure.

tubashaman wrote:Okay, ASSUMING a student (I have known some who have) has a CC and F and is in highschool trying out for the TMEA All state band, which horn (as an adjudicator, assuming the F has a solid low range) would be preferred to hear in an audition.

As someone who judged TMEA auditions in the recent past, I would agree with Wade... do not audition on an F tuba. Period.

Texas band directors are very prejudiced toward one sound. True, the judges cannot see which horn you are playing but if they can hear any difference (which is questionable but possible) they will lower the chances of moving out of regionals. They are looking for homogenous tubas which will blend into homogenous sounding band.

I judged, substituting for a band director; I found that, as a tuba player, I was looking for completely different things than the band directors were. Most important for them: how many notes did the player miss? Second, range. Third, sound (here was the biggest divergance of my concept and theirs). I had sense enough not to push the issue.

Nuance was not a big issue, nor was musicianship, though with the Koprasch exercises chosen that year, there was little chance to display either. It was purely technique and preperation.

Few people would be able to tell the difference between a BBb and a CC in this audition. Truly, after hearing 75 students playing the same "cuts" I couldn't either.

A couple points of disagreement here.

First - The Haydn Trumpet concerto wasn't written for natural trumpet with crooks - it's written for keyed trumpet, a very different beast. The piece cannot be played on natural trumpet.

Second, I was happily the winner of the All Northwest Band competition (Washington, Idaho, Alaska, Montana, and Oregon). I won it on my Eb. Why? Because I played better than everyone else, not because I had a BAT and could level a stadium. It was 1988, I think... and the Orchestra winner also played Eb for his audition. There was another band competition in Oregon, which I cannot recall the name of, where the first two players played Eb (me and the same other guy). The next guy down from us played a little 2J CC.

Second, the variety of instruments available to students, and the different sizes, should not be a determining factor AT ALL for High School auditions. It's too damn arbitrary. Take the playing for its merits. Are they filling up the horn they’re using? Is the sound good? Is the student technically proficient on the instrument they're on?

My answer would be to play the horn the student sounds the best on. I'm a huge fan of Bass Tubas (duh ), but I wouldn't be very driven to play most of the stuff mentioned on bass tuba, though I always have my Eb ready

Play what sounds best. Don't play the CC because you think you have to. And judges, COME ON! Evaluate the student, not the equipment. When he enters College, and is making that kind of investment, the professor can guide the student in which horns to use for what and when, and what to purchase.

J.c.S.

I think it is interesting that someone would come on here and ask a personal question to a public forum. In my opinion I think it would matter only to the person auditioning what instrument he plays. Maybe his teacher. But what good is it to ask the question of what is common practice for others? Do what you think is best for you and your student and don't worry about what other people do. The point of an audition imo is to present what you have to offer for the to judge on. There is something to be said for making an effort to play what the judges want but at the same time you have to be the individual that stands out to make them want to pick you. You are the only one who can decide that for yourself not tubenet.

Alex C wrote: I judged, substituting for a band director; I found that, as a tuba player, I was looking for completely different things than the band directors were. Most important for them: how many notes did the player miss? Second, range. Third, sound (here was the biggest divergance of my concept and theirs). I had sense enough not to push the issue.

Nuance was not a big issue, nor was musicianship, though with the Koprasch exercises chosen that year, there was little chance to display either. It was purely technique and preperation.

Few people would be able to tell the difference between a BBb and a CC in this audition. Truly, after hearing 75 students playing the same "cuts" I couldn't either.

From my experience in judging these events, and I have done this many times, you are absolutely correct in your assessment. My choice of first chair is rarely the same as others on the panel, unless that player happens to have both sound and outstanding technique. My list of priorities would probably mirror yours, Alex. Unfortunately, sound is not usually the band directors priority.

To add a little depth to this, let me give this bit of info. Usually, the panels on which I have served will generally agree on the top players. They will generally agree on the bottom tier of players. In the middle, there is usually almost no agreement. My guess as to the reason for the disagreement in the middle is due to a great disparity in what the individual judges are listening for.

Another item, from another post: Texas does not use sightreading in the audition process. Personally, I feel this is wrong, but no one cares how I feel.

One more item: One can volunteer to judge in the Texas all-state process. That doesn't necessarily mean they will judge. That being said, sometimes contest chairmen find they are simply looking for a warm body in order to fill the panel. At all levels of the process, the panel consists of five people. They use the "olympic" manner of ranking. Each judge ranks the players from one to whatever. Each judges results go on a ranking sheet, and the high and low scores are dropped. Due to the need for many judges, usually more than there are band directors to fill the slots, high school directors are required to judge, and are asked to bring middle school directors who (volunteer) are used as judges. At this point, the chairman will usually have some more judging slots to fill. They begin by calling private teachers. Sometimes these spots are filled by college students. At the lower levels, this is a hit and miss affair, something I believe is a problem. As the process progresses, the quality of the judges tends to improve, as the demand for large numbers of judges on the same day, diminishes.

Someone else posted the comment that they thought the Texas audition process was pretty serious. I would say that it is. It is very, very difficult to make all-state, here. My problem with the process has three main areas of concern:

1)inconsistency in judging(especially early in the process)
2)no sightreading
3)fragmentation and convolution of the process
a)there is the TMEA all-state & the ATSSB all-state process
b)as weird as it sounds, students in any classification can audition for, and make
the 5A all-state band

Anyway, Alex, you absolutely nailed it in your post. Todd, once again you have zoned into some important things.

J.c. Sherman wrote:First - The Haydn Trumpet concerto wasn't written for natural trumpet with crooks - it's written for keyed trumpet, a very different beast. The piece cannot be played on natural trumpet.

Thanks, J.C. - you're right, of course. I shouldn't criticize others for posting incorrect information and make such a glaring error as that.

Todd S. "imagining that first sixteenth note run with an open bugle " Malicoate

TubaRay wrote:Sometimes these spots are filled by college students. At the lower levels, this is a hit and miss affair, something I believe is a problem.

I'm truly amazed at this. Wow. Thanks for the perspective, Ray.

College students as judges...undergraduates, even? That would never happen in Oklahoma...the repercussions would be apocalyptic.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:I'm truly amazed at this. Wow. Thanks for the perspective, Ray.

College students as judges...undergraduates, even? That would never happen in Oklahoma...the repercussions would be apocalyptic.

My recollection is that Region band tryouts are all held on the same day, statewide. Considering all the instruments that need to be judged, and considering the number of regions in Texas, it's no wonder that there just aren't enough judges.

I was once asked to fill in for a pro who was adjudicating a similar event in a state in my area. I was unable to do it (and that was a big disappointment), but it shows that sometimes finding judges is just not easy: I have no credentials for doing it.

On the subject of James's hypothesis: James, listen to your elders. They are wise. The time to shake up the world with unconventional thinking is when unconventional judges are evaluating the result. That will not happen in any high-school setting of which I've ever heard.

(I doubt seriously that the C vs. Bb debate has any traction in this discussion. Only judges like Alex and Ray would be able to tell the difference, and even if they did, they would be wise enough not to care. But F tuba is another matter altogether.)

On the subject of using F tuba in wind ensemble: I do so. But only in specific cases: orchestral transcriptions of works that originally includes a characteristic F-tuba sound (such as Berlioz), when two tuba parts are scored (example: Lincolnshire Posy), or when the section and the director agree that the contrasting voice would do some good. But even that would be outside the box of non-tuba-playing band directors. I play F all the time with brass quintet, but my first experiences with quintet were on Bb, and that worked, too.

The tuba section in the Texas All-State Band usually has six players, if I'm remembering correctly (and I went to hear them play for all the years I lived in San Antonio). I would think such a band could stand someone on a bass tuba. I do recall Revelli admonishing a TMEA audience during one of the sessions, stating that any large wind band should have at least one bass tuba. That said, his was a point of view not likely to take hold.

And that's for the better, in my view. We already put too much pressure on high-school kids (and their parents) to have high-end equipment (rather than high-end commitment). When I was in high school in Texas, few of the tuba players I met even owned their own tubas, let alone an expensive C. Nobody could even conceive of owning two tubas. I didn't even know such things existed when I was in high school. Here in Virginia, I do know several high-school kids who played C's, but one had borrowed it from his (pro tuba player) father, and the other two have gone on to music as a career or major course of study. None of them own an F, even now.

In the part of Texas in which I grew up (Houston ISD), we did not place much focus on Region, Area, and All-State band. The richer schools out in the outer suburbs did to a much greater extent. Just as well: I did not have the chops or the commitment to go that far. Our focus was All-City Band, which rehearsed at the Houston High School for the Performing and Visual Arts. That was enough for me.

Rick "with young relatives from those outer suburbs who made it to All-State" Denney

In high school, I didn't even know tubas came in different keys. It wasn't until I was looking at tubas and reading about until I found out about them.

In my "district" band auditions (we call them all-county), we had band directors as the judges but most of them were players of those instruments, so I guess we were lucky in that aspect. We are also an extremely small county so we have plenty of people to choose from.

I don't think I would have survived in a state like Texas, I didn't even audition for All-State in Maryland, mainly because I couldn't find someone to drive me 3+ hours to the audition with a tuba in their backseat. Oh well, I'm in college on scholarship, I guess it didn't hurt me too much.

J.c. Sherman wrote:A couple points of disagreement here.

First - The Haydn Trumpet concerto wasn't written for natural trumpet with crooks - it's written for keyed trumpet, a very different beast. The piece cannot be played on natural trumpet.

Actually there are quite a number of trumpet players who perform this piece, and other pieces of this genre, on natural trumpet (and play amazingly well). There are a lot of recordings of it. Natural trumpet has come a L-------O--------N-------G since the early days of Edward Tarr.

J.c. Sherman wrote: My answer would be to play the horn the student sounds the best on. I'm a huge fan of Bass Tubas (duh ), but I wouldn't be very driven to play most of the stuff mentioned on bass tuba, though I always have my Eb ready

Play what sounds best. Don't play the CC because you think you have to. And judges, COME ON! Evaluate the student, not the equipment. When he enters College, and is making that kind of investment, the professor can guide the student in which horns to use for what and when, and what to purchase.

J.c.S.

You made some good points in your post. Unfortunately, the original poster was asking about an admittedly, hypothetical student auditioning on an F tuba for Texas all state band; those issues in the context of his question. You can disagree with the Texas band directors' priorities but the advice was good. I appreciate TubaRay giving additional support but, keep in mind , I was only enlarging on elephant's response.

Texas, as the advertisement says, is "a whole other place." What works in most other states won't always work there. Band (and music) is given financial and schedule support from the school districts that other states just can't. Parents do the same. The private lesson system in most districts in the state is unknown in most of the rest of the country. If that makes you jealous know also that it is hard (nearly impossible) to get hired in Texas if you don't have Texas networking but that's a whole other post.

Say what you will, the Texas Band directors have a certain unity and consistancy of what they want; the F or Eb tuba audition would hurt the student's chances in the All State audition process. My guess is that a student playing an F (or Eb) in Texas who happened to make it to All-State would be near the bottom of the section. The place to try the smaller tuba would be in the solo and ensemble competition. The judges there would understand and appreciate all that was involved.

By the way, one school when I taught private lessons (late 1980's) had three CC Miraphones (for the first band) and three BBb Miraphones (for the second band). The kids were expected to be able to switch back to BBb sousaphone for marching without screwing up in concert band. And they did! That's Texas bands for you.

(Not a native Texan).